trick or...climb

[JayB]

Though I am part of the ever-swollen ranks of bumblers that finds enough challenge in WI3 to keep me happy just about all of the time, I didn't take offense with anything that Mitch had to say in his post.

 

To me, it sounded like he was saying that the degree of difficulty, commmitment, and risk associated with steep-but-less-than-verticle ice and the dead verticAL stuff is such that the two can seem like completely different activities at times, and that doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. In fact, if one were to divide all pure ice climbing into two separate grades, drawing the line at the juction between verticle and less-than-verticAL wouldn't be a bad place to put that line IMO.

 

It's a lesson that I had driven home in a big way during my first season of ice. My first day out I led a WI2 flow, and like most folks found it to be pretty easy going. After topping out on this test-piece I wisely concluded that I aquired enough experience to make an informed judgement about all of ice climbing, and that on the whole it must be a whole lot easier than people made it out to be. I shared my wisdom with a fellow who had been climbing ice since the mid-70's, who just laughed and suggested that I might find the going a bit more difficult when the ice got steeper.

 

I headed out to a two-pitch WI3/4 flow outside of town a couple of days later and, properly emboldened by my mastery of the WI2 stuff, set out to lead both pitches. What followed ranks right up there with a botched early trad-lead as one of the more terrifying experiences of my life. I can remember feeling pretty cocky at the start of the first pitch, and fighting off the urge to weep and vomit simultaneously by the time I was topping out on the final few feet of the climb. I let myself get suckered in by the fat, sticky ice on the lower angled terrain below, and found myself on hard, fracture prone, and pretty-damned-close-to-straight-up ice a few inches thick by the time I was close to topping out. My calves felt like they were being barbequed with a butane torch, my hands were about as useful as stumps inside my sopping-wet ski gloves, and the best placement I could find with my tool was a hooking placement with fracture lines radiating away from it in every conceivable direction. Getting a screw off of my harness and into the ice over the course of the next five minutes proved very interesting. The climb concluded with me shamelessly hooking a rap sling dangling down from the tree at the top of the route, impaling a big root with my other tool, then working my tools up the trunk until I could lurch/heave myself onto the ledge and clip into the nest of webbing tied around it. After lying there for a minute or two I opened my eyes, looked below and saw that the guy I'd amused with my thoughts concerning ice climbing a couple of days earlier was at the top of the first pitch. We waved and wondered aloud if I'd care to restate my any of my rather broad conclusions concerning ice-climbing.

 

I've climbed a fair amount of ice since then but still approach anything that gets close to

verticAL with a great deal of humility, caution, and respect. Though I feel like I've made some headway in terms of technique, when I get on anything that's straight up, the pump in my forearms and calves is always unrelenting, the fear is nearly constant, placing screws takes as much determination and focus as I can muster, and I remember that I'm just a whole lot happier on WI3-WI3+, which incidentally is where I spend about 80% of my time when I'm leading.

 

Hopefully I'll reach a point where I feel as confident and secure on sustained verticAL stretches as I do on more moderate terrain, but even if that day comes I'll never lose the respect I learned for the steep stuff. For me at least, that's a whole different ball game.

 

[ 10-31-2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Talk about sport climbing hard, and what constitutes "hard" sport routes, and you're an egotistical prick. Talk about ice climbing hard and what makes a "hard" ice climb, and you're respected for your bold opinions.

 

Fuck off, alpine nut-swingers (y'all know who ya is).

[COL._Von_Spanker]

Jay,

I don't disagree that vertical Ice is extremely difficult. I think the most burn that I have ever felt was TR'ing an overhanging 'schrund. It's about tone, not content.

 

The traverse in my garage is is G9. Super scary. You got rotten ice, i got rotten wood.

[erik]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

Talk about sport climbing hard, and what constitutes "hard" sport routes, and you're an egotistical prick. Talk about ice climbing hard and what makes a "hard" ice climb, and you're respected for your bold opinions.

 

Fuck off, alpine nut-swingers (y'all know who ya is).

---

hey grams, whats your hardest sport route?????/

 

i listen to ya!

 

[COL._Von_Spanker]

quote:

---

Originally posted by erik:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

Talk about sport climbing hard, and what constitutes "hard" sport routes, and you're an egotistical prick. Talk about ice climbing hard and what makes a "hard" ice climb, and you're respected for your bold opinions.

 

Fuck off, alpine nut-swingers (y'all know who ya is).

---

hey grams, whats your hardest sport route?????/

 

i listen to ya!

 

---

Ohhh Erik, Your such a good listener.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think if rock is 5.6 or below it's not rock climbing.

[Off_White]

I think its not spray unless someone reports it to the moderator.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think if Scot'agonia or Trask post there is or soon will be spray.

[Greg_W]

I don't think it's spray unless there is a in the post or someone gets told to "gargle butt-gravy."

[allthumbs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greg W:

I don't think it's spray unless there is a

in the post or someone gets told to "gargle butt-gravy."

---

gregw, my friend we should picnic this fine weekend. maybe take a stoll through the park!

 

 

[ 11-01-2002, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: erik ]

[Greg_W]

Not fast enough on the edit. You can still: eat me, ass-eyes

 

[ 11-01-2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Greg W ]

[allthumbs]

alright erik you cum guzzlin homo, now yur on my shit list!

[Greg_W]

Sorry, thought that was directed at me. Good one, Erik.

 

[ 11-01-2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Greg W ]

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lambone:

I'd argue that steep ice takes little skill and technique to succede on. One can usually get by with balls and muscles...

---

This is usually true of WI4 climbs, but unless you are uncommonly strong, this approach to a WI5 route may leave you with bones sticking out.

 

quote:

---

But skill and technique make it more fun, less tiering, and easier (less bashing) on the ice...

---

...and safer.

 

quote:

---

Putting screws in does'nt take much skill realy. We'll ok, so you have to know what a good spot looks like, but after that you just put the damn thing in and clip it. The rest is a mater of hanging on and not getting freaked out.

---

True on fat WI5. But get on long, steep, bad ice, or WI6 where poorly consolidated ice is an accepted part of the game, and protection is not always a screw because sometimes there just is not enough solid ice to place it in and you must use other more creative techniques to protect the route. The game can become very deep.

Now we're .

[COL._Von_Spanker]

quote:

---

True on fat WI5. But get on long, steep, bad ice, or WI6 where poorly consolidated ice is an accepted part of the game, and protection is not always a screw because sometimes there just is not enough solid ice to place it in and you must use other more creative techniques to protect the route. The game can become very deep.

Now we're

.[/QB]

---

What techniques do you use to protect when the ice gets that shitty/thin? Have you ever used one of those long spike lookin' things (pound in screw out) designed for frozen dirt and bad ice?

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

Water ice ain't water ice until it's vertical....

---

Yes, obviously a facetious remark. But the real message was:

quote:

---

...Unless it is

VERY

thin or actively falling down, water ice requires very little in the way of skill or technique to succeed, and most will be able to bumble their way through it.

---

Matt, Col Von to Spank the Monkey:

 

Let's make a few reasonable assumptions about a climber new to Waterfall Ice climbing:

 

1) They are a rock climber with enough experience to safely arrange their own lead protection and belay anchors at the 5.9/5/10- level.

2) They have read and understood the appropriate texts on Waterfall Ice Climbing.

 

Just how many days of instruction do you think it would take for this person to safely lead a WI3 waterfall?

 

Answer: 1-2 days.

 

In my book, this translates to "very little in the way of skill or technique". Any one with less that 1&2 should probable work at improving at technical rock before tackling Waterfall Ice.

 

If you have a problem with my "tone", (which we all know is the real issue here,) maybe you need to work toward associating only with persons that are better at blowing sunshine up your ass.

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

If you have a problem with my "tone", (which we all know is the real issue here,) maybe you need to work toward associating only with persons that are better at blowing sunshine up your ass.

---

That is what I was thought too. Everybody here is way too kiss each others ass sometimes. The hard realities are just glossed over all the time.

[mattp]

Mitch, I do have a problem with your tone. I have tried to avoid picking fights with you, because it doesn't really serve anybody. But your answer to just about every issue, whether it is bolting, passing other parties, ice climbing, or whatever, is "I am a badass and fuck everybody else who cannot climb at my standard." I have heard that you are in reality a nice person, and I would actually like to meet you some day. But in this forum and at Leavenworth and Vantage, you have in my opinion been divisive and hostile and while I agree with many of your opinions, I believe your "tone" does a great disservice to your message. Earlier in this thread, you sought to clarify your position and stated that you hadn't set out to insult anybody, and I can see here and in other conversations that you are probably sincere about that. In suggesting that your initial posts were "over the top" I was not asking you to blow sunshine up my ass but merely to consider showing more respect for climbers who may have lesser abilities.

[COL._Von_Spanker]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

Water ice ain't water ice until it's vertical....

---

Yes, obviously a facetious remark. But the real message was:

quote:

---

...Unless it is

VERY

thin or actively falling down, water ice requires very little in the way of skill or technique to succeed, and most will be able to bumble their way through it.

---

Matt, Col Von to Spank the Monkey:

 

Let's make a few reasonable assumptions about a climber new to Waterfall Ice climbing:

 

1) They are a rock climber with enough experience to safely arrange their own lead protection and belay anchors at the 5.9/5/10- level.

2) They have read and understood the appropriate texts on Waterfall Ice Climbing.

 

Just how many days of instruction do you think it would take for this person to safely lead a WI3 waterfall?

 

Answer: 1-2 days.

 

In my book, this translates to "very little in the way of skill or technique". Any one with less that 1&2 should probable work at improving at technical rock before tackling Waterfall Ice.

 

If you have a problem with my "tone", (which we all know is the real issue here,) maybe you need to work toward associating only with persons that are better at blowing sunshine up your ass.

---

Sunshine up the ass is the best. That's why I bring my mom climbing.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by COL. Von Spanker:

What techniques do you use to protect when the ice gets that shitty/thin?

---

1)What often works best is really long slings. And I mean really long . Sling as much ice as you can.

 

A)The fattest icicle. An entire free-standing column if you are on one.

 

B)Poking a hole through a curtain and threading the sling and reaching around the edge of the curtain to grab it to form a complete loop.

 

C)Punching two holes in a curtain and performing the same maneuver. (The wire hook for fishing out slings on a V-thread can be useful.)

 

D) Slinging "mushrooms", usually improved ala bollard-style, and usually must be held in place with opposition or at least weighted.

 

2)Pitons pounded in to cracks at the edge of the ice or through it. (Normal rock gear also, of course.)

 

3)Tied-off screws in series.

 

4)A long screw, tied off at the center and inserted through a slot in the ice (most likely between two icicles) and then turned sideways.

 

5)Any of the above in combination/equalized.

 

6)Imagination. Creativity is the rule.

 

I have used all of these at least once. Load-limiting runners help a lot with their psychological value.

 

quote:

---

Have you ever used one of those long spike lookin' things (pound in screw out) designed for frozen dirt and bad ice?

---

Snargs? Yes.

Warthogs? No.

Ice hooks? Yes, but I don't like them.

If you're talking about something else, I don't know.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Hey Mattp,

 

I've seen plenty of people here with superiority type comments. If I was looking to "tag" someone with them then it would be easy to do but I am not. I bet I could nail you on one if I tried. But I am not into that sort of game playing right now.

 

Let's get real.

[JayB]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

Let's make a few reasonable assumptions about a climber new to Waterfall Ice climbing:

 

1) They are a rock climber with enough experience to safely arrange their own lead protection and belay anchors at the 5.9/5/10- level.

I've been surprised by how many folks I've met out there who are anxious to lead steep waterfall ice without having learned to lead trad at something like this level first and/or just seem to have no idea what leading ice at that level entails. Way sketchier than jumping straight from sport to trad IMO.

 

The only thing that enabled me to keep it together after I found myself in over my head during my misguided foray into the steep stuff on my second lead was the set of skills I picked up during a bunch of trad leads, most important amongst them being the ability to hang on, focus, and work though the fear in order to get the necessary gear in while stuck in a bad stance where falling just wasn't an option. And even with an okay trad background I still get tweaked-out on stuff that a lot of folks yawn through...

 

[ 11-01-2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: JayB ]

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

That is what I was thought too. Everybody here is way too kiss each others ass sometimes. The hard realities are just glossed over all the time.

---

Amen, Brutha. I am not a bad-ass, (just a shit-head). Nothing keeps you humble (and alive) like "The hard realities". All this political correctness gets in the way of the truth.

[JayB]

Seems like that's sort of endemic to climbing discussions in general. No one wants to come off like a melodramatic wanker, but even when taking that into account, I'm still amazed at how seldom anyone brings up fear, doubt, apprehension, misgivings, etc. when discussing climbing.

 

Confronting those feelings and overcoming them, or at least coming to terms with them, seems to be at least as much a part of climbing as the rest of it. For most folks these are all part of the reality of climbing at some point, but they do seem to get glossed over most of the time.

[mattp]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

All this political correctness gets in the way of the truth.

---

Agreed. You may find it more satisfying to express yourself the way that you do, and it is certainly your right to do so. I'm just suggesting that you may better be able to present the "truth" if you were able to do so in a different manner.

 

I do not think it is "politically correct" or disingenuine or even naive to recognize that people are going to be more likely to listen to you if you don't start off by telling them they can fuck off if they don't climb as well as you do or aren't willing to take the same risks as you do or whatever.

 

[ 11-01-2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: mattp ]