B.S.'er Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 Notice- this post is not another "ethics" post I'm most likely way behind the times on this, but I heard that the route "Infinite Bliss" on Mt. Garfield saw an ascent several years earlier by a man named Weiss from puget sound's eastside. The route was climbed on sight without pins or bolts and is 95% the same line as the "Infinite Bliss" rap bolt line (95% the same is pretty amazing as far as mountain routes go). As someone who has put up a lot of routes of all styles myself, I'm not taking an ethical stance with this issue, I'm just reminding everyone that the American ethic mandates that the first ascensionist has naming rights. From here on out, I will refer to this route as the "Weiss Route" or until the first ascensionist either gives his route another name or concedes the naming rights to the retrobolters. This is a cut and dry issue with no room for discussion I've been on both sides of this coin with some ofmy routes. This is the American ethic. Please do not refer to or print the name "Infinte Bliss" any longer. Sure- somebody will probably point out in a subsequent post one exception to the rule at some far away place, but I am sharing the custom (whether you are an old crusty hardman or a teenager writing with your pen on the taped gym project). Many of us correspond with the media (climbing and regular media)- Just a reminder for you to do the same. A lot of our fellow men and women don't read climbing websites- please remind them if they mention "Infinite Bliss". Thanks Quote
Distel32 Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 does the name really matter on some chossy climb that has created so much controversy?? Quote
DPS Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss. I'll call it any damn thing I like includings Dan Smith's route if I like it. Quote
jordop Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 Oooo, jeez. Little late now, huh? Better call all the mags and issue a retraction! And despite the massive overarching controversy of wilderness bolting and area closures, I'm sure they would just LOVE to wade into that one Quote
Colin Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 Well, regardless of whether you decide to call it "Infinite Bliss" or not, definitely don't call it the "Weiss Route!" The first ascencionist's name is Mike PREISS. And, yes, his claim is valid - he's a hardcore dude. Quote
JoshK Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 The dude starts spewing about giving credit to the guy and he doesn't even know his name. Have you bothered to check if the guy even gives a crap about the name? Quote
sk Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss, Infinite Bliss. I'll call it any damn thing I like includings Dan Smith's route if I like it. that was what i was gunna do but you beat me to the punch Quote
johndavidjr Posted December 24, 2004 Posted December 24, 2004 I just heard about this route in Seattle newspaper, which briefly gave it big hype ---and called it "Infinite Bliss" so what it's called? Preiss/Weiss? Quote
chris Posted December 25, 2004 Posted December 25, 2004 As I understand it, the Preiss Route and Infinite Bliss are distinctly different. The Preiss Route 1) enters the face around the 5th or 6th pitch of IB, 2) follows a series of traversing ledges across the face, crossing IB at least twice, 3) rejoins IB for the infamous unbolted pitches below the headwall before 3) taking a different finish to the left of IB. I can't find a satisfactory photo of the face, but if someone posts it, I'll trace out what I think is the Preiss Route versus Infinite Bliss. For alpine respect, it doesn't get any better than a Grade V solo on something as committing as the South Face of West Garfield. Hat's off to Preiss - it's an accomplishment that many of us, I think, desire for ourselves. But the Preiss Route, as far as I can tell, is not Infinite Bliss. Quote
Alpinfox Posted December 26, 2004 Posted December 26, 2004 As I understand it, the Preiss Route and Infinite Bliss are distinctly different. The Preiss Route 1) enters the face around the 5th or 6th pitch of IB, 2) follows a series of traversing ledges across the face, crossing IB at least twice, 3) rejoins IB for the infamous unbolted pitches below the headwall before 3) taking a different finish to the left of IB. I can't find a satisfactory photo of the face, but if someone posts it, I'll trace out what I think is the Preiss Route versus Infinite Bliss. For alpine respect, it doesn't get any better than a Grade V solo on something as committing as the South Face of West Garfield. Hat's off to Preiss - it's an accomplishment that many of us, I think, desire for ourselves. But the Preiss Route, as far as I can tell, is not Infinite Bliss. The most recent R&I has a picture (taken by our own AlpineDave) of the IB route with Priess' route drawn in, as well as a letter from Preiss describing his route. Preiss also has a letter to the editor in Alpinist 8 making fun of the holier-than-thou attitude of Twight & House. Quote
chris Posted December 26, 2004 Posted December 26, 2004 But Preiss' own route description is notably different from IB and the route drawn on the photo. I wonder if he has climbed Infinite Bliss, or even returned to the face since IB has been put up... Quote
slaphappy Posted December 26, 2004 Posted December 26, 2004 But Preiss' own route description is notably different from IB and the route drawn on the photo. I wonder if he has climbed Infinite Bliss, or even returned to the face since IB has been put up... That's a good question, has he done IB in it's current state? I don't doubt the guy climbed the face, what I do doubt is he did "95%" of the same route. Using the lines on the pic in R&I is pretty pointless since the line showing the IB route is wrong. Quote
chris Posted December 26, 2004 Posted December 26, 2004 I remember reading an older piece (perhaps in the AAJ? - I can't remember precisely where) describing the Preiss Route zigzagging up the face via moderate ledges, and the crux being the final headwall. This is not how I would describe Infinite Bliss. Give me some time to find the material and I'll post it here. Quote
JoshK Posted December 27, 2004 Posted December 27, 2004 Maybe it should just be called Infinite Piss in honor of that horribly long piss you take in the morning after being tent bound and unwiling to get out of your sleeping bag. Quote
willstrickland Posted December 27, 2004 Posted December 27, 2004 AHEM!! I shall henceforth be referred to as THE maestro. Got it? Quote
chris Posted December 27, 2004 Posted December 27, 2004 This is long winded, but please put up with me. Perhaps grab a beer first... OK, I've finally bought a copy of R&I #139. I'm going to quote Mike Preiss's letter exactly. "I solo-climbed this line on July 23 through 24, 1999, making the first ascent of this face on-sight, ground-up, boltless and pinless, with one bivy. The article in No. 138 by Andy Dappen ["Infinite Bliss"] failed to mention this. [My line] shows that this face didn't need to be bolted into submission for the sport climbers to play their no-risk sport/game. Only as a lastresort should bolts be placed. I can't speak for the bottom three to four pitches or the last four to five pitches (they take a harder direct finish). I do agree that some of the middle section could use a few belay bolts, but I found the protection decent on most of the climb." Here's what I notice when I look at Dave's photo with the line of Infinite Bliss and the Preiss Route marked in, and compare it with my notes from an ascent of IB in May last year: 1) That the picture fails to show the bottom six pitches. If the photo accurately depicts Preiss's entire route, then he can't speak about pitch 1-6... 2) The photo also incorrectly details pitches 7 - 10, and is very foreshortened... 3) According to the photo, Preiss followed IB through a pitch of 5.9+ (Pitch 9) and a second pitch of 5.10- (Pitch 11), but detours around the easy 5th (or hard 4th depending who you talk to) of the 15th, 16th, and 17th pitches... 4) The Preiss Route seperates from IB at the top of Pitch 17 to head left on easier ground. This means Preiss can't comment on another six pitches to the summit. So Preiss can't comment on 12 pitches of a 23 pitch route... So, what else did I read? I went back and sorted through the Infinite Bliss conversations of the past on Cascade Sprayers. I found one comment by Marko about knowing someone who soloed the face - I can only assume he meant Preiss. I re-read the NWMJ, but nothing. I also double checked the 2000, 2001, and 2002 AAJ's, and just for kicks 1999 as well. Finally I read the Brown Book (Beckey's Vol. I: Columbia River to Stevens Pass), Third Edition (printed in 2000). No mention of the Preiss Route, and no surprise since Preiss probably climbed the route when the latest edition was being proofed. But it was cool to read that the first ascent of the South Face was done by Gerry Roach, Dick Springgate and John Wells on 22 February 1963. But when I climbed IB last May, I was aware that someone had soloed the face before, and I looked around to see how it could be done. I sincerely wonder why Preiss would solo up two pitches rated 5.9+ and 5.10-, respectively, but then take an easier line than the three 4th class pitches conecting the bottom to the final headwall. And as I look at the photo, the obvious, alpine-style route that I would assume a soloist to take follows the most logical system of ledges. It is a sinuos (sic?) line that would enter the face and cross IB at pitch 10, rejoin IB at pitch 15, and then seperate at pitch 17 to follow Preiss's finish. Preiss should get full credit for such a bold climb ( ), but I question if it was the identical line. The 4 hardest pitches of Infinite Bliss are unprotectable without bolts, as is almost all of the route. I disagree with his claim that Infinite Bliss could have been done without bolting. By soloing, yes. But with trad gear and pins? No. Hence my doubts... Quote
dbb Posted December 27, 2004 Posted December 27, 2004 Haven't seen Preiss's letter in the new R&I, but what's the controversy? They are two routes that share the moderate/easy terrain on the same feature and done in totally different styles. Was there mention of how both routes relate to the Whitelaw route done 30 years ago? I imagine they must have exploited some of the same weaknesses. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted December 27, 2004 Posted December 27, 2004 My God has logic left this planet?!?! Example #1: “The route was climbed on sight without pins or bolts and is 95% the same line as the "Infinite Bliss" rap bolt line (95% the same is pretty amazing as far as mountain routes go).” Now Preiss states that he did not climb 9 pitches of the IB route. The IB route is 23 pitches. Thus Weiss climbed about 61% if the IB at best – not 95%. Example #2” '[My line] shows that this face didn't need to be bolted into submission for the sport climbers to play their no-risk sport/game." Doesn’t it seem that for sport climbers to play their “no risk” game bolts are required by definition? Quote
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