DLunkman Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: DPunkman - Let's keep it civil, dickweed. Regarding the broken cams, by my read the cams were damaged due to pulling out.
Greg_W Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by DLunkman: quote:Originally posted by Greg W: DPunkman - Let's keep it civil, dickweed. Regarding the broken cams, by my read the cams were damaged due to pulling out. Please enlighten me with quotes of what I am missing or shut the fuck up. Oh, and while you're at it explain why soft rock holds cams better than granite. [ 10-09-2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Greg W ]
DLunkman Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Greg W: quote:Originally posted by DLunkman: quote:Originally posted by Greg W: DPunkman - Let's keep it civil, dickweed. Regarding the broken cams, by my read the cams were damaged due to pulling out. Please enlighten me with quotes of what I am missing or shut the fuck up. way to keep it civil married guy! it seems obvious to me that the cams fell out becuase they broke not that they broke because they fell out. Oh, and while you're at it explain why soft rock holds cams better than granite. soft rock would be less chance to break the cams. I didnt say soft rock would hold better
Bronco Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Terminal Gravity: I am feeling shakey about the use of cams after this terrible accident. I'm sure I am not alone.... AMEN Brother! I really took my time leading a "warm-up" 5.7 crack this weekend totally paranoid about the gear I had in ripping out and plunging to my death if I fell. I was testing each hold, planning my next 4 or 5 moves like I was free solo. I finally reached the chains and lowered off to find out it had taken me 1.5 hours for 1 pitch. Sheesh! I didn't know I could hang on that long. Anyone know what kind of rock is in the Hyalite, specifically Practice Rock, Lambone? I was definetly thinking way too much about the accident and probably just need to take a good old whipper out at Index in some nice burly granite to get over it.
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bronco: Originally posted by Terminal Gravity: I was definetly thinking way too much about the accident and probably just need to take a good old whipper out at Index in some nice burly granite to get over it. Yeah dude I've held the rope while you fell at Index on cams. You've seen me take a couple of diggers out there too. Relax
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 Thank you for posting, Clyde. One thing doesn't quite make sense to me. Maybe you can help me understand better. Once a dynamic rope becomes loaded, and stretches applying enough force to cause the piece to fail it will then become completely unloaded, correct? (If the piece fails easily the rope will not become signifacantly loaded...so that's a non-issue) In fact along with the climber the rope will be in free fall, if ever so briefly, and have every opprotunity to rebound. I suppose there is something like a speed of elasticity/rebound factor that might be measurable. It seems to me, though that the rope in a completely unweighted senario would rebound very, very quickly. Am I wrong in this assumption? Maybe it's a bad analogy, but I try to imagine stretching a rubber band tight, letting go and trying to beat it back to the starting point. After all, if a falling climber puts enough force on a rope to stretch it as far as we are talking about, he (or she) will have slowed their fall prior to the piece failing. I once fell hard on a top piece ( that I thought was good) felt myself just about bounce, it popped and the next piece ( which I thought was marginal) held. I fell far enough that I ended up brushing the ground but the rope pulled me up a couple of feet and it was clearly loaded with atleast my body weight. In this case my belay was fairly dynamic (may have saved me) but that says to me the rope immediatly rebounded the 2 feet plus the belay slip. I would welcome any enlightenment on this, Thanks.
ryland_moore Posted October 9, 2002 Posted October 9, 2002 [ 10-09-2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ryland moore ]
Clyde_Soles Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: I suppose there is something like a speed of elasticity/rebound factor that might be measurable. It seems to me, though that the rope in a completely unweighted senario would rebound very, very quickly. In theory yes, in reality no. Dynamic ropes absorb the energy of a fall both with the stretch of molecular bonds of nylon 6, which generates heat, and a physical untwisting of the fibers (this is a broad oversimplification). While some of this is recovered immediately, it takes time for a rope to completely restore it's elasticity (I've heard a range of one to 24 hours), which is why sport climbers working a route are supposed to rotate ends of the rope occassionally (not that anybody listens). But in a scenario like this, it's less than 2 seconds till the second impact and the first piece pulling may not have slowed him down much. At that point, all the slack is gone (belayer tight, runners all tight, device locked) with an increasing fall factor. So the actuality is the forces can be higher than might be expected on subsequent pieces. Usually this isn't a huge concern but when things go wrong they can pile on fast.
RRickerts Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Count me in on any bike/climb adventure in Göran's honor -- my two specialties! I'm especially fond of the Liberty Bell proposal, although I've checked out Hwy. 20 for riding and there ain't much of a shoulder heading up. It's also 50 miles of UP, so make sure you're in shape! Any RAMRODers would know about the Rainier approach -- I got pulled out of that this year by family demands. Göran inspired me to conceive a "Sea-to-Sky" expedition here in Bellingham: bike from the Fairhaven ferry terminal up to the trailhead to Mt. Baker and start approach in one day, attain high camp and rest the next day, summit and return the third. It may not be fully "Göran-size", but its in the right spirit and could be a good warm-up for the Rainier attempt. I let that dream slide for this summer, and I never found any suckers to even encourage me, but now may be the prime opportunity to ring together some commitment for next summer! Keep me posted.
Paul_detrick Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Clyde nice post, you see it like I do, but I will wait til all testes are done to see if thats true.One thing the #3 was the frist piece to pull, for whatever reason. I don't know how high it was, but no more than his ht. which i heard was 6'4. the #2 could have been 10 to 15 ft. below. Like to keep the facts correct.
Paul_detrick Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Oh and my parner has the end that Koopp was tied in too, the only thing on it is 60 meters, but I've seen it and felt it and I would say it was a dynamic(ps).
erden Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Clyde nice post, you see it like I do, but I will wait til all testes are done to see if thats true.One thing the #3 was the frist piece to pull, for whatever reason. I don't know how high it was, but no more than his ht. which i heard was 6'4. the #2 could have been 10 to 15 ft. below. Like to keep the facts correct. I like Clyde's post as well. We are documenting all input, and Clyde is not saying anything with which we disagree. Paul: We are relying on your input in the force calculations, and we are using the Petzl fall simulator. The forces are high, and we will document all of that. I am trying to get the digital pictures that we have on a CD to bring them home so I can start the documentation in earnest. Cpt Caveman: I want to post pictures of pro, biners, site, memorial and such, and I need help in posting them... anybody know? How do you post your trip pics? Erden.
allison Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 I need clarification. Erden said the police have the rope, but Paul said he has the end that G was climbing on. There has been a lot of information posted, but I do not recall seeing anything about rope breakage. Did the rope get cut in the rescue/recovery? Thanks for coming out to Pub Club last night Erden....can't speak for everyone here but for me it was good to see you there, just like maybe it was good for you to see us there.
Clyde_Soles Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Not having climbed in the PNW, I’ve just discovered this thread. First, I’m truly saddened by the loss of Göran. However, I think this information is valuable to many people and some good may come out of it. Let me clarify a few technical details. I’ve been rather involved with climbing gear testing for many years and wrote a book, Rock & Ice Gear, that can explain my comments further. The Camalots Erden is describing are the old-style U-stem model discontinued about 7(?) years ago (took 8 pages to figure this out). These had relatively narrow 7075 cams where the current single stem models are wider 6061cams. The small surface area made these more likely to track out and it sounds like this rock would be prone to that. Alloy hardness is relatively insignificant in this application but I won’t get into that. A careful examination of the crack should show the track marks and possible blowout at the edge. While this doesn’t apply to older ropes, the current standard states that a static rope has a solid color with a single strand wrapping around the rope and a dynamic has multicolors with crisscrossing strands. It is possible to have static ropes that feel like dynamics but most have a rougher sheath for durability; not necessarily stiffer but there’s often a tactile difference. They aren’t really static anyhow, though not as soft as dynamics in falls. Furthermore, the belay system is usually the limiting factor on forces in a fall like this (minimal rope drag??), not the rope. Still haven’t figured out the distances involved (initial fall and distance between pieces) but he was a 100kg so that made things worse. From the descriptions, it sounds like he was 15 ft above the #3?? The Petzl Meteor passes a tougher standard than a bike helmet and offers better side impact protection than most hard shells climbing helmets. It’s among the best choices for this type of climbing but can only do so much. Certainly looks like an open gate failure for which there could be numerous explanations — it doesn’t surprise me. The short, stiff quickdraw may have contributed since it would be more likely to get whipped around as the top piece came under tension. It’s quite possible for forces to build up in extremely unfortunates circumstances as this appears to be. If much of a ropes’ elasticity is used up in the initial fall, there isn’t much time to recover if the top piece fails. In the UIAA test, they wait 5 minutes between drops and do not report the peak force on the second fall. I’ve seen second drop data and it doesn’t appear to correlate to the first drop (a softer rope can give a harder second catch than a harder rope on it’s second drop). Plus by the time the second piece is impacted, all of the natural give in the system is used up. So the next piece gets a hefty load, nearly static. I suspect it’s more of a problem with skinnier ropes (less nylon) in general than particular models. Age is another factor that reduces rope elasticity, not strength. I certainly don’t have a definitive answer but, judging from afar, it sounds like many things compounded in the blink of an eye. This is the reality of climbing. The vast majority of times, it’s a very safe activity. But all the little details that most of us don’t think about (or know about) can add up to catastrophe. My condolences again, Clyde.
Paul_detrick Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Yes the rope was cut. It was found on the ground after everyone left.
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erden: Originally posted by Paul detrick: [qb] Cpt Caveman: I want to post pictures of pro, biners, site, memorial and such, and I need help in posting them... anybody know? How do you post your trip pics? Erden. Email me the photos and I will upload em for you. Or just email me and we can work it out. RayBorbon@hotmail.com
erden Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Yes the rope was cut. It was found on the ground after everyone left. Tell me more for clarification, this is news to me! Was the rope cut during the accident, or did the rescuers cut it by taking a knife to it to facilitate preparation of Göran's lifting up to the helicopter? Erden. [ 10-10-2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: erden ]
Retrosaurus Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Clyde Soles: While this doesn’t apply to older ropes, the current standard states that (1)a static rope has a solid color with a single strand wrapping around the rope and (2)a dynamic has multicolors with crisscrossing strands. Paul and/or Erden, Which of these standards did Goran's rope conform to? [ 10-10-2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Retrosaurus ]
Timpanogos Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 I have followed this thread with much reflection. My heart felt feelings go out to the family and friends. Being my first year climbing – starting right out with trad, and having the same brands of cams, I’ve been glued to the clues and mysteries that have been brought out in this thread. Based on MichaelB’s comments (sounds like he knows the route inside/out) along with all the other posts – the following fall factors came to my mind. Total rope out = 65’ (20 meters) First piece of pro = 25’ runout (based on MichaelB’s comments) Anchor to last placement = 10’ (based on MichaelB’s comments) 65-10-25 = 30’ between top and bottom piece (4 segments) 30 / 4 = 7.5’ feet average between placements Assume first fall was from the anchor 20’ fall to #3 on 65’ of rope = .31 fall factor 20 + 7.5 * 2 = 35 / 65 = .54 on #2 where the biner broke. (35 + 15) / 65 = .77 on the walked #1 (50 + 15) / 65 = 1.0 on the #3 TCU Now I realize that hitting the popping pro would keep the additive fall lengths below what is shown here, but if the #3 did not pick up much load, the .54 factor on the biner could be fairly accurate. I assume that a force greater than the normal 15’ fall (from #2 to #1) would come into play because of motion, and this additive force was obviously very high by the time it hit the #3 TCU. However, this math does not add up, because he fell some distance below the belay station. MichaelB – can you give a more accurate measurement of the route, and Erden, how far below the belay station did he fall? Thanks Chad
Timpanogos Posted October 10, 2002 Posted October 10, 2002 Woops, This does add up if he stopped 15' below the belay station.
Paul_detrick Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Mitch, I seen the rope but I can't remember which it was. My parner is down in yos. climbing and won't be back til monday. Erden the rope was cut by the rescuers before they took him away. As soon as he gets back I will take a more careful look at it.
erden Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Good input everyone. Clyde, TomRogers, Chad, and others: you have spent a good deal of time putting this info together, and I need to cross check my analysis with yours. Steve Nagode and I relied on Paul Detrick's numbers for cam locations to generate the fall factors and the impact loads on the #2 Camalot and the #1 Camalot. I am working on a way to present those results in this thread. It has been a bit overwhelming at my end, and I will be compiling a more comprehensive report based on all the imput here and our additional investigation. I need time to cross check the info and to put out an accurate report. I may even have to go out to Air Guitar and look for track marks on the rock for the #3 Camalot and the #1 Camalot for the sake of accuracy... Erden. [ 10-10-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: erden ]
tomrogers Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Here are some other items to consider. Permit me to use approx numbers and not defined actuals for this discussion. Ropes are rated within certain dynamic forces limits, lets say 2,700 lbf based on a 65 kg climber (REMEMBER THE NUMBERS ARE APPROXIMATE) I do not know the climbers weight, heavier or lighter, but the loadings can approx extrapolated. This is the maximum force the rope is permitted to impart to the climber, based on a theoretical fall factor of 2. In reality, this force is under 2 due to the test set up. So the fall force calculators may be overly conservative in this calculation. Given that the climber was at least 60 feet out from the belay and the belay device was not a static device (which has its own running friction point), and the rope went through several biners which in practice generate much load-reducing friction (thereby further reducing the load), the climber (which implies his rope too) did not see a high load factor. A question to ask: how was the belayer tied-in -- tight or loose. was the belayer jerked and highly loaded or how hard was the load received and for how long of a time. Remember the rope is rated for a specific load. The rope will continue to stress, although possibly not linearly, it will continue to stretch until it losses all of its elasticity. This elasticity is the driver for a given load. Let's say the 1st piece reacted a 1,000 lbf, lets say 600 lbs to climber and 400 lbs to the belayer. The rope at the reaction point is work-hardened while the remaining rope is less work-hardened. The rope in effect, still has at least 2,100 lbs (2700-600) of margin remaining to be further reacted by further stretching. Another issue which must be considered is that a force can only be reacted by an opposite equivalent reaction. How long was the belayer loaded up? When the climb was falling did the belayer react the loads --through each and every piece -- which failed? Did the belayer -- feel the load continue to increase through the failed pieces? Once the belayer's reacting forces eased or stopped the forces to the protection would also diminish. Think about what it would feel like to react a 2,700 lbf load. Most of use would buckle from the thought of it. I don't think the rope's hardness played a rope in this case but rather the protection pieces interface with the surrounding rock. Regards, Lets becareful out there.
Anna Posted October 12, 2002 Posted October 12, 2002 Wow. I just got done reading this whole thread! I'm sorry Erden, my condolences, I cannot even imagine what it must feel like to go through something like that. Well..I certainly cannot give any technical feedback and hell, I didn't even know Goran but it sounds as if he was a real influential man to so many of you and was definitly a roman candle(see my favorite quote below ). I think that it is very noble to die a legend.
Anna Posted October 12, 2002 Posted October 12, 2002 Well, I guess my sig decided not to show up on my last post so here is the quote anyhoo: "...the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles."-Jack Kerouac
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