Irresponsible Posts

[sexual_chocolate]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terminal Gravity:

I'm glad you piped up, Shakey. Your views were exactly those that I hoped would be the prevalent ones.

 

I can't say why, but when I read your initial post I was pretty sure you had a depth of experience and felt that my view might be worth the read for you.

 

I also assume that you and everyone else on this board (unless they profess otherwise) are responsible for their own decisions in the mountains. That is clearly the way it should be.

 

Cheers.

---

I thought by the tone of your initial post, you were having some misgivings and/or doubts about previous advice you had given. This post makes it seem as though you knew all along how you really felt, or at least how you WANTED to feel. I personally feel it's kinda lame to throw anything out there, irregardless of possible outcomes, and then try to act innocent, implying everything is really the other person's responsibility. Well, in the end it is, but we're ALL responsible for what we do, and that includes giving dangerous advice. And yes, advising someone to go soloing is dangerous advice.

 

I've soloed alot, but would never recommend it to someone I don't know, especially the context in which the advice was offered.

 

Just my opinion, for which you asked for.

[shaky]

OK, folks, better weigh in, since that soloing advice was found on a thread I started. Briefly scanned the discussion so far - was going to comment yesterday, but (Heaven Forbid!) I got busy at work. Anyway - I agree that the advice was questionable. However, I took a look at what TG was actually saying - in that through soloing (for him) he was able to increase his confidence and prepare himself mentally more effectively for dealing with fear/runouts, etc. in other situations.

 

No, I ain't going soloing to clear my head. But I can appreciate the theory behind it, at least.

 

So, on to responsibility of posts - I'm an experienced climber, and think I can cull out bad advice or take even 'good' advice with a grain of salt. I'd like to think that most people posting to this forum or similar forums elsewhere would have enough of a bullshit filter to do the same. Where I've seen advice to newbies, at least on this forum, it seems to have been fairly responsible. I think that TG probably recognized that a reader to his soloing suggestion would look at it as a tool that worked for him ("Your results may vary.") and that, as an apparently experienced climber working through issues to help keep climbing a healthy and happy part of my life, I would look at it under such a light. I don't think that TG, or anyone else on this forum, would generally give the same advice to a newbie posting a similar question. Similarly, most people posting would have the sense to give general info, but perhaps recommend other resources to a beginner (classes, books, etc.) where they can get more formal advice and instruction - I'm not going to try to teach someone how to climb over the Internet - are you?

 

The problem, and we see it in frivilous lawsuts everyday, is that for some reason or another, there are people who don't have these filters. And these are the ones that create the problems. Not me, not TG. So do we stop posting? No, we think on what we write, and recognize that this is a big, dangerous world. And that we choose to do something that keeps that metallic taste in our mouth to make it that much more real is our choice. Could some idiot read TG's advice to me and take it as gospel? Sure. But I think that sharing advice (even bad advice), making jokes, and generally not walking on eggshells is a much healthier way to help each other along than clamming up for fear that some mouth-breather may actually think that we know what we're talking about.

 

That is all.

[Terminal_Gravity]

I'm glad you piped up, Shakey. Your views were exactly those that I hoped would be the prevalent ones.

 

I can't say why, but when I read your initial post I was pretty sure you had a depth of experience and felt that my view might be worth the read for you.

 

I also assume that you and everyone else on this board (unless they profess otherwise) are responsible for their own decisions in the mountains. That is clearly the way it should be.

 

Cheers.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

And yes, advising someone to go soloing is dangerous advice.

 

I've soloed alot, but would never recommend it to someone I don't know, especially the context in which the advice was offered.

 

Just my opinion, for which you asked for.

---

Which hand did you use, moondancer

[Terminal_Gravity]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terminal Gravity:

I'm glad you piped up, Shakey. Your views were exactly those that I hoped would be the prevalent ones.

 

I can't say why, but when I read your initial post I was pretty sure you had a depth of experience and felt that my view might be worth the read for you.

 

I also assume that you and everyone else on this board (unless they profess otherwise) are responsible for their own decisions in the mountains. That is clearly the way it should be.

 

Cheers.

---

I thought by the tone of your initial post, you were having some misgivings and/or doubts about previous advice you had given. This post makes it seem as though you knew all along how you really felt, or at least how you WANTED to feel. I personally feel it's kinda lame to throw anything out there, irregardless of possible outcomes, and then try to act innocent, implying everything is really the other person's responsibility. Well, in the end it is, but we're ALL responsible for what we do, and that includes giving dangerous advice. And yes, advising someone to go soloing is dangerous advice.

 

I've soloed alot, but would never recommend it to someone I don't know, especially the context in which the advice was offered.

 

Just my opinion, for which you asked for.

---

SC,

After PP's original suggestion I reflected on my advice and my posts for quite awhile. Yes, indeed, I had misgivings about irresponsible posts...I would never want to post something that could create a dangerous situation for someone. PP sugested that I had. It took awhile to reconcile my thoughts. I finnally realized that I was takeing it all too seriously. Climbers are ultimately responsible for themselves. Except for flagrantly bad or malicious advice, it's all good to disemanate and let the reader decide what's right for them. That is the respectful position that I would want for myself.

 

All that being said, I felt like this should be discussed. I also wanted to hear from the majority as to weather my conclusions and attitudes were prevalent. So I purposely tried not to lead the discussion when I started this thread.

 

So, if you still think I was being lame, Sexual Chocolate...KISS MY ASS! Oops; maybe you'd like that.

[sexual_chocolate]

"I finnally realized that I was takeing it all too seriously."

 

Really? I'm wondering.... Hey I'm not meaning to be an ass here, but here's the way I see it: you felt badly about some advice you gave, you didn't want to feel badly (human nature), couldn't really make sense of it so you opened it up for peer review, got some feedback you liked, some you didn't like, chose to go with the one you liked, and presto, you allevaited some uncertainty and could now go on with a clean conscience.

 

What would you say if the poor bloke followed your "advice" and fell to his death? I mean, it's not like you were telling him/her to take a walk in the park, or to go climbing after getting proper instructions. Your advice carried a clear message, hard to misunderstand: "maybe try soloing."

 

My advice:

 

Soloing is incredibly dangerous! It is not advisable therapy for hypsiphobia! It can kill you! It's a shitty way to die! It can kill you faster than simply getting near TG's ass!

[Thinker]

Does anyone else see the irony in the meaning of the words/avatar "Terminal Gravity" and the subject of this thread?

[chucK]

Sorry, but your request must first be routed through Veggiebelay (the site irony cop) before the site at large can consider it.

[mattp]

Most of all, unroped solo climbing is SCARY and, as such, I think fears of the irresponsible post leading to accidents are probably overblown. Yes, I have known inexperienced climbers who got in over their head when scrambling, and there are idiots who will try anything if it has been called "XTREME," but the danger of unroped climbing on technical rock is so obvious that damn near anybody will freak out pretty quickly and back down from even the easiest climbs without a rope. However, if we were going to worry about giving irresponsible advice, I would think that a climber with some experience, enough to feel a sense of mastery at climbing, would be more prone to being misled into taking risks than would someone new to the sport.

[Peter_Puget]

Mattp -

 

While you may be correct, I can't help but comment that the first two fatal soloing accidents I have heard of/seen where both newbies. One in CA, the other at Index.

 

Welcome back.

 

PP

[Cpt.Caveman]

Maybe those newbies were the dumb species. It doenst take a genius to figure out the climbing is getting difficult and you are in a deadly situation.

[chucK]

Newbies are a lot less likely to know that downclimbing is way more difficult than going up.

[Dru]

For the benefit of newbies and inexperienced I now rate all 3rd and 4th class scrambles 5.11c so that no newbie attempting to repeat gets in over their head

[Terminal_Gravity]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

"I finnally realized that I was takeing it all too seriously."

 

Really? I'm wondering.... Hey I'm not meaning to be an ass here, but here's the way I see it: you felt badly about some advice you gave, you didn't want to feel badly (human nature), couldn't really make sense of it so you opened it up for peer review, got some feedback you liked, some you didn't like, chose to go with the one you liked, and presto, you allevaited some uncertainty and could now go on with a clean conscience.

 

What would you say if the poor bloke followed your "advice" and fell to his death? I mean, it's not like you were telling him/her to take a walk in the park, or to go climbing after getting proper instructions. Your advice carried a clear message, hard to misunderstand: "maybe try soloing."

 

My advice:

 

Soloing is incredibly dangerous! It is not advisable therapy for hypsiphobia! It can kill you! It's a shitty way to die! It can kill you faster than simply getting near TG's ass!

---

Sexual Chocolate:

 

Thank you for the psycho analysis. ( don't take that as sarcastic, it's not intended that way ) I think that you have a point. We all, to some extent, want to have approval by our peers. As I have said, I would not want to be responsible for giving advise that led to harm.

 

I did indeed reflect on my posts, and I appreciate Peter Puget's post because it was a catalyst for those reflections.

 

I think to some extent you took my "don't take it to seriously" quote out of context...or maybe I did not express my thoughts clearly. I strongly feel that this board and the postings should not be taken to seriously. I have fun on this forum and I have fun in the mountains. But I take climbing and climbing safety very very seriously. I don't like to fail in the mountains. To me dieing while climbing would be the ultimate failure. I would much rather slip in the tub and crack my head. Climbers might chuckle, but atleast they would not say " I knew the mountains would get Steve in the end. He was way to bold." My wife and daughter don't worry when I'm out because they know I am safe, prudent and often turn around if things get to dicey.

 

I stand by my stance that free soloing with the right attitude and done with focus and for thought, at a comfortable level has the possibility of helping with the "fear of leading" issue. It worked for me. I really don't think that done appropriately free-soloing is more dangerous than many other common mountaineering pursuits.

The main reason I practice some rock free-soloing is to hone my mind and focus for alpine routes where subjective exposure might make the use of a rope more dangerous. I don't want to freeze up mentally if I have to turn a few loose & exposed fifth class moves on climb when gear would not otherwise be needed.

 

My first posting on this thread was really not about free-soloing. It was about posts and the possible ramifications. I strongly feel that it needed to be brought up. From the number of thoughtful responses it is clear that it is a good topic to discuss.

[texplorer]

So . . soloing in the dark, on a climb you have never been on before, after you have had a few beers, and no headlamp, might be dangerous. Well, I never would have guessed?

[Terminal_Gravity]

quote:

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Originally posted by texplorer:

So . . soloing in the dark, on a climb you have never been on before, after you have had a few beers, and no headlamp, might be dangerous. Well, I never would have guessed?

---

Yeah; I did that once at J-tree on a 5.3 after flashing 10's all day when I was 19. Young dumb and full of cum/ego. I am not sure I have ever been that scared since. It is amazing that some of us survive our youth... I drove alot crazier than I climbed.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by texplorer:

So . . soloing in the dark, on a climb you have never been on before, after you have had a few beers, and no headlamp, might be dangerous. Well, I never would have guessed?

---

I THINK I DISAGREE!?

 

[crazy_t]

"the rock won't let go of you"

[klenke]

If someone gives you advice about a particular climb (whatever that advice might be, be it whether to solo or not or something else) on this website or wherever, here's what you should do:

 

Go in to the kitchen. Grab the salt shaker and dump out one grain of salt into your palm. Walk back to place where info is located (at the computer terminal, perhaps), reread the info and then insert grain of salt on tongue. Close mouth and swallow.

 

I find that climbers "generally" give information out responsibly. This usually means erring on the conservative side if you feel like you're a more capable climber and talking to a less capable climber. Since it is hard to know just where someone else is at skill-wise, climbers probably err on the conservative side anyway.

 

[ 10-09-2002, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: klenke ]

[Don_Gonthier]

I realize that "Solo climbing" technically means climbing alone but, most climbers associate it with climbing unroped. If this is always unsound advice to an anonymous audience, we're going to have to rewrite all of them guide books that descride a route as 3rd class. I mean who knows whos going to get their hands on them things. Most of us feel we can trust people to use their own judgement when they are using a guidebook. Why would anonymous advice off the web be any different.