Freeman Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 OK, you start up the North Face of Old Stewie, leaving the glacier at 4:30pm with the goal of making the bivi at pitch 7 tonight. Three pitches up your partner skates off, pulling one piece and falling 70 feet, breaking his foot. You hold his fall, but he has the entire rack except for your anchor. It is 200+ feet to the glacier and you are climbing on two 50 meter 8.5's. The sun is going down. What do you do? Each of us (except the sporties) faces some variation of this every time we climb. So my questions is - does your partner know how to help you when this happens to you? Does she know how to excape the belay? To lower you 200 feet on 2 ropes tied together (passing a loaded knot on the way)? To retrieve the ropes and enough gear to get herself off and get help for you? Rather than starting a big thread discussing how to do this, I'm wondering how many of you would be interested in a seminar where we discussed and practiced Self Rescue and Partner Rescue. Chelan County Mountain Rescue has been talking about putting together a little class on this subject - one we seldom think about and never practice. We would do it sometime later this Fall, probably at L'worth, no charge, and done under the CCMR training envelope so there won't be a lot of legal issues (we will not be "teaching" but rather discussing, demonstrating, blah, blah...). You would probably have to join CCMR for the day for the insurance and liability stuff - just some paperwork formalities. If you might be interested you could contact us thru our website www.ccmra.org (go to the contact us tab) or you can e-mail me directly freeman.keller@verizon.net (please don't reply to the addy that connects to this message as it comes to my office and I'll just ignore you). btw - the above happened tuesday evening and the guys involved did everything just right. It made our work a whole lot easier and saved them a miserable night. Could you do the same when it happens to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juneriver Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I would be interested and would make the drive. This is stuff we should all know, but if it's not practiced or relearned periodically it's tough to keep straight. I'd REALLY like my partner out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I'd participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 i've done some reading, but it's not quite the same as hands on real life training. i'd be game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Agreed, I'd be in. Sounds like there could be a lot of takers, fast.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchfest Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I concur, I would be into a day of that, say when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 are you guys in the MRA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Sign me up. I've read the self-rescue book and practiced a few of the knots, but I need more realistic practice if I'm going to remember the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 I've heard of this. I think it's called "The Mountaineers Intermediate Course". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 I'm in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Join the Mountaineers and take the Small Party Self Rescue Seminar. They will teach you how to extricate yourself from such incidents on rock, and on snow. Mountaineers Intermediate Course will not cover this material. There is a "Rescue Methods" session where basics will be discussed, but not to such extent. Erden. [ 09-12-2002, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: erden ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RURP Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 This is RURP: I will join the Mountaineers when they pry my ice axe from my cold dead fingers. RURP has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted September 13, 2002 Author Share Posted September 13, 2002 I'm overwhelmed by the response - there is obviously a need for this kind of training (probably from a variety of sources - the Mounties, CCMR, books...). Please, if your want to be included either post a message on the web site or e-mail me at the above address - I will not keep track of replys in this thread. We will create a list of people who are interested and mail back to you if and when it happens. There may not be time to put it all together this fall. In the mean time, it behooves us all to think about these issues and discuss them with our partner each time we climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AA Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Thanks for the post Freeman, that is an excellent idea. Count me in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 not sure what the mounties teach in their self-rescue training, but the CCMR has used the same material that the AMGA used in developing rescue training for their guides. furthermore, CCMR' self-rescue trainers have all taught the AMGA guides' courses in the past... whatever that's worth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 I had this nightmare thought the other day: Me and a partner are doing a 5.9+ rock climb on a big vertical mountain--a rock climb that requires much protection. Halfway up, the two of us manage to accidentally drop the rope off the mountain (even worse if also chucking the pro off too). From our sorry position, we're too scared to free climb on and have no rope with which to rappel down. Worse yet, cell phone coverage is non-existent. Worse yet, both of us forgot to tell anyone where we were going. What would YOU do? All the more reason why it is important to tell at least one responsible person where you're going (as cheesy as it is to do at times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Tricky Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 If you somehow dropped the rope while climbing you could cut up cordelletes/slings/daisy chains/webbing to produce a functional short section of rope that would allow you to lead/aid up a short distance and backclean, basically leapfrogging the anchor up the route. If you dropped the rack, you could look for natural pro, collect some rocks and chuncks of wood to wedge in rock features, or do as they do at Fankenjura (sp?)and just wedge knots in the crack. Also, the random stuff still on your harness (excess biners, etc.) can be used effectively as passive pro. Side note: A couple fellow CC.commers and I climbed the West face of N. early winters spire this week and found an old square of slung plywood stuck in the long finger/hand crack on the last pitch! Anyone know who put that there and when? If you drop the rope AND your rack halfway up a big climb, kick yourself in the ass once, say two hail marys, tell yourself "I am peter croft" three times---and climb on!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 Mountaineers Small Party Self Rescue Seminar is modeled after the AMGA content, run by Seattle Mountain Rescue folks and staffed by able climbers. ... whatever that's worth ... Oh, and I am a member of the Mountaineers and my fingers are still in good shape. Erden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted September 19, 2002 Author Share Posted September 19, 2002 Chelan County Mountain Rescue has decided to postpone the public Self Rescue Seminar until next spring. It is our feelings that there is not sufficient time to put this class together this year. Unfortunately by opening this to non CCMR members many issues arise that are not present with our normal training programs, including the liability of our organization and individual members, assembling the necessary teaching materials, and obtaining permission to use some copyrighted materials. We feel that by the time these are resolved it will be too late this year for the class. It is our plan to make this the focus of our Fall training for our members and to use this experience to prepare for a public demonstration of Self Rescue next spring. I apologize for prematurely generating interest in a program that was not ready. It is apparent from the response that there is a very great need for this type of seminar and I believe that organizations like CCMR are the ones that should be presenting it to the climbing community. In the mean time I recommend that every climber seek out as much information on this subject as possible - including classes by other groups, books and magazines, and simply working through scenarios with your climbing partners. I highly recommend David Fasulo's little book Self-Rescue by Falcon (ISBN 0-934641-97-8) and a series of articles by Ramsay Thomas in Climbing magazine during 1996. And on each climb we should ask ourselves "What if....." Freeman Keller Chelan County Mountain Rescue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted September 19, 2002 Share Posted September 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Freeman: Chelan County Mountain Rescue has decided to postpone the public Self Rescue Seminar until next spring. It is our feelings that there is not sufficient time to put this class together this year. Unfortunately by opening this to non CCMR members many issues arise that are not present with our normal training programs, including the liability of our organization and individual members.... I apologize for prematurely generating interest in a program that was not ready. It is apparent from the response that there is a very great need for this type of seminar and I believe that organizations like CCMR are the ones that should be presenting it to the climbing community.... In the mean time I recommend that every climber seek out as much information on this subject as possible - including classes by other groups, books and magazines, and simply working through scenarios with your climbing partners.... Arrrgh. Let's see. It's dangerous to have safety courses taught by knowledgable instructors. It's better to learn from your buddies who know less than you do. Arrrgh. This is not a knock against you, Freeman, or your organization. Thanks for trying. There are plenty of 'climbing' clubs that can't organize climbs or classes for their own members for similar reasons. Arrrgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted September 19, 2002 Author Share Posted September 19, 2002 Don't worry, Attitude, we will do it. We just need the time to do it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted September 19, 2002 Share Posted September 19, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Freeman: Don't worry, Attitude, we will do it. We just need the time to do it right. Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pencil_Pusher Posted September 19, 2002 Share Posted September 19, 2002 The Boeing Alpine Society www.boealps.org has an ICC that teaches similar self-rescue stuff. Unlike the 2-5yr class length of the mounties, this one's about six months long. Also unlike the mounties ICC, most students come into the class with prior leading experience. Ice, rock, snow, aid, self-rescue, and a whole slew of other things taught by some cool and experienced people. The next class should be in March. I think the class limit is around 15 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted September 19, 2002 Share Posted September 19, 2002 Yeah, what he said.... [ 09-19-2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: tomtom ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 19, 2002 Share Posted September 19, 2002 I dunno how it is in the States but Ive seen plenty of bumbling by search and rescue groups in Canada. Mostly swarming all over the Smoke Bluffs with 12mm hawsers and practicing top roping. I would prefer to rescue myself than have some of these jokers come out to get me. One time at Lighthouse Park some friends and I were first responders to a crazy dude who had been soloing next to his fixed line and fell off, couldnt grab it, hit some rocks, broke ankle and leg then fell in the water and started drowning. well we got him out of the water and stabilized anbd sent one guy off to cal 911 and get the rescue hovercraft brought in as he would have been much harder to evacuate by land than by sea. well the local fire department showed up to "assist" in the rescue and bumbled around with hemp ropes and rubber boots nearly precipitating a few more rescues as they sketched about on the rocks trying to get down to the victim. fortunately the hovercraft arrived and evac'ed the soloist and everyone else got to safety. how is this for gratitude - we had stripped off dudes wet cloths and put our dry fleeces on him to keep him warm. crazy soloist dude tried to steal my fleece and i had to hunt him down 4 months later and make death threats in order to recover my fleece! gratitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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