Bad Style

[Lambone]

sounds to mee like the only bad choice they made was in footwear. The rest could easily be chalked up to "shit happens" or "it was harder then we thought it was gunna be"

Lambone-

Most tragedies start off with a bad decision following by some bad luck, and some "shit happening". They all have numerous chances for a good decision to be bad/different actions to have been taken that would have averted the tragedy.

 

WTF? huh?

[Chriznitch]

one vote against censorship (except on kiddie computers)

[Rad]

Tempering the tone of criticism from ranting flame to constructive serves two useful purposes, in my opinion:

 

1 - Keeps people posting TRs. Without them this site is a lot less interesting and useful. I enjoy newbie enthusiastic adventure tales just as much as Colin's two liner about hiking the N face of Robson in his tennis shoes.

 

2 - Makes it more likely that the errant but lucky climbers will listen to the criticism and change their habits next time they go out into the mountains.

 

To err is human. To err and not learn from it is stupid.

To err and require a chopperlift to harborview is tragic.

[Spliffy]

Maybe I should have asked "How could you be so stupid?" in my original post, which was considerably less acerbic than the one above.

 

Maybe if someone had said "Climbing DT in SANDALS is a dmub idea." in response to BobbyPeru, instead of , these folks might have got the hint that maybe it's a bad idea.

 

There is too much "circle-jerking" going on around here.

[Spliffy]

For example, I have read posts on this site about a winter ascent of a route near cascade pass and a first ascent in the coast range. Both times, plenty of congrats, great job, totally awesome. Never mind that the climbers in both cases seemed to ignore serious objective hazards, as well as the advice of very experienced climbers. Sure, they did the routes, but they needlessly risked their lives for no reason in both cases. To me, that's "Bad Style" and should be criticized as such.

[Alpinfox]

Maybe if someone had said "Climbing DT in SANDALS is a dmub idea." in response to BobbyPeru, instead of , these folks might have got the hint that maybe it's a bad idea.

 

So I suppose a disclaimer should have been added to his TR.

 

"Warning, Do not try this yourself. BP has perfected his flip-flop hiking skills with years of practice and hikes like a freakin' cheetah. Do not attempt to flip-flop your way up dragontail without certified professional instruction and years of practice".

 

[Spliffy]

Maybe if someone had said "Climbing DT in SANDALS is a dmub idea." in response to BobbyPeru, instead of , these folks might have got the hint that maybe it's a bad idea.

 

So I suppose a disclaimer should have been added to his TR.

 

"Warning, Do not try this yourself. BP has perfected his flip-flop hiking skills with years of practice. Do not attempt to flip-flop your way up dragontail without certified professional instruction and years of practice".

 

 

No, but a response like "You wore SANDALS?? Are you DENSE?" would have gotten the point across.

[Alpinfox]

 

Yeah, but BP doing dragontail in flippers WASN'T stupid. I've seen that boy hike in his flippers... usually from about half a mile behind him as he disappears in a cloud of dust up the trail. He had the experience, judgement, and skills to make that choice and I don't second guess him.

[skykilo]

Yeah. And let's start a thread to flame Reinhold Messner. I mean, soloing 8k meter peaks with no 02? What a whack job fuckin' idiot.

 

Bad style. Boo to you, yeti chaser...

[Geek_the_Greek]

What's your point, spliff? That doing things that are dangerous is a bad thing? That's obvious to some extent, but it's all relative, because no one can argue that we wouldn't all be safer staying in bed every day than doing any climbing at all.

 

And as for "experienced climbers" being immortal or something, that's a load of crap. If you look at the compiled data from 50 years of Accidents in N. A. Mtng, accident and death stats are pretty much equal across ability levels. Sure, newbies make more avoidable mistakes, but veterans counter it by pushing things more - and either "getting lucky", or not. Experience level is not what it's all about, it's more like personal preference for varying danger levels.

E.g. Twight et al. on something like Reality Bath. Or that nut Jim Beyer and his solo A5 route up on Baffin. Very experienced, doing something many considered insanely dangerous. They got away with it. All the better for them.

 

It was perfectly obvious from the SA TR that the party knew they had made certain mistakes and learned from it. Why are you wanking on and on about needing to punish them for it?

[eternalX]

But seriously, it was a bad idea to take a bunch of newbies up the Fisher Chimneys in bad weather, without appropriate gear or experience. That's what people were trying to say. I think they could have rocked the Sulfide, but then again, the weather forecast was pretty unambiguously bad. But newbies trying to ice climb without even the right equipment, and then rapping down in the rain... There is a thin line between feeling stupid and feeling very, very sorry.

 

Well, I guess I just spilled the beans. Anyway I thought the deletion of my post betrays a trend of overly sensitive moderation.

 

HA HA HA... oh wait..you're talking about me! Well, when I posted I believed that there was one somewhat newbie involved in the trip, having only done Helens / Adams / Sahale, etc. Turns out that I was worng and that most everyone was unfamiliar with crevasse rescue, rapelling. And finally, Winnie's Slide is not ice climbing. It was defined as 'a bit sketchy' on this board or something to that effect. I don't even believe the Nelson guide makes any such mention of it being sketchy. I read the route descriptions for both and didn't seem to think there was anything crazy on either (there isn't).

 

The thing about this board is that if you ask for comments about a climb, you get bombarded by why you shouldn't do it. With everything coming with such disclaimers, it's hard to separate what is normal "be safe" advice and what's "you don't need to be out there".

 

In the end, I don't want to let anybody think i just disregarded their comments. I asked for advice, received it, and maade my own judgement. That's not a dis on anyone.

[Squid]

Taking a calculated risk is not the same as failing to recognize a risk exists.

The party in question were struggling at the 5.8 crux and getting sketched on the snowfield descent- not quite the skill set of Messner or Peru. They should've learned a little more about the route & descent before tackling it.

[klotzy]

With the inordinant amount of Spray that goes on through out this site I felt that I should first read the original [TR] before I comment. I think that a certain amount of criticism and advice is extremely important especially in this situation. Regardless of what we may think of their style the fact is they made a huge amount of poor decisions that could of resulted in injury for themselves or another group of climbers/rescuers. One of the number one responsibilities for all climbers, especially in the backcountry is to be self-sufficient. This could have easily escalated into an unneccesary rescue situation. Decisions to climb when "Oh, and we had no damn idea how to get down, other than "its a walk off".

Could have easily been determined beforehand or resolved with a simple map and compass. Yes we have all been in situations where something happened that resulted in an unexpected epic but in most cases they would be handled because the time was taken to be prepared. In addition, when situations like the mentioned [TR] result in rescue it perpetuates an image of irresponsibility and foolishness that makes all climbers look bad. Yes climbing is risky but the idea is to rely on your teams skills and preparedness to minimize those risks to a level that is acceptable to each climber. While this level of risk may have been acceptable to them it was foolhardy and inexcusable to most.

As for censoring, I would hope that the moderators would contact Spliffy first in an effort to have in remove some of his harsh language. But I must also agree that in an effort to encourage [TR] you need to control the amount of Spray. But again this [TR] was more of a hey look what I did rather then an informational one. I have read many [TR]s on this site where something went wrong and the climber (to their credit) outlined what they did wrong as well as encouraged comment from the group. It seems that in most cases such introspection only happens when there is an injury.

This is only my humble opinion feel free to spray away.

[Geek_the_Greek]

They should've learned a little more about the route & descent before tackling it.

Yeah, but they obviously realized it. So the elitist spray and finger wagging was totally unnecessary.

 

Edited September 15, 2004 by Geek_the_Greek

[Squid]

 

I think a 'That was stupid' is appropriate here. I'll save my finger-wagging for the sandal-shod.

[ashw_justin]

HA HA HA... oh wait..you're talking about me! Well, when i posted I believed that there was one somewhat newbie, having only done Helens / Adams / Sahale, etc. Turns out that I was worng and that most everyone was unfamiliar with crevasse rescue, etc. I sholud also add that i was invited on the climb and did not initiate it. And finally, Winnie's Slide is not ice climbing and as it was defined as 'a bit sketchy' on this board or something to that effect. I read the route descriptions for both and didn't seem to think there was anythnig crazy on either (there isn't). The thing about this board is that if you ask for comments about a climb, you get bombarded by why you shouldn't do it. With everything coming with such disclaimers, it's hard to separate what is normal "be safe" advice and what's "you don't need to be out there".

 

In the end, I don't want to let anybody think i just disregarded their comments. I asked for advice, received it, and maade my own judgement. That's not a dis on anyone.

 

Yeah man, right on, I'm not calling you a an idiot or anything, I'm more just speaking out against critical posts getting nuked.

 

A lot of the best mountaineers start out sketchy, their motivation far outpacing their experience. Which is not to say that I think you yourself are a newbie (hell maybe I'm still a newbie), but it sounded like you may have had some folks up there who were clueless to some degree. I had just assumed that you were the "trip leader" and perhaps were making a decision that could put some newbs at uncommon risk. That's the kind of decision where it's important to listen to warnings.

 

I don't know if you ever got to read that post anyway, but actually my main criticism was not heeding the weather forecast! Climbing in the rain sux big balz, mmkay.

 

ps. Sky WTF, did Messner come asking for advice on cc.com? Damn, I always miss the good threads.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Hey fuckers!

 

Take sandals to descend off dragontail peak is fucking retarded. Those Fucking RETARDS are lucky they didn't get frostbite or real bad weather didn't fuck them up worse. And no crampons or ice axe ? Shit is icy up there what did they think it was romper room.

 

Besides moving so damn slow you might as well just stay in the gym until you are ready. Yeah I aint holding back because I also know 2 good friends of mine had an epic up their 2 years ago. I still can't figure out why people (including my buds) take so long on this route.

 

That is about as blatanly retarded and irresponsible as I have seen in a while.

 

They got what they fucking deserved.

 

Spray on maggots!

[Alpinfox]

The thing about this board is that if you ask for comments about a climb, you get bombarded by why you shouldn't do it.

 

While I think this may be a stretch on the truth, you are right that people on this board frequently offer cautionary advice. I think this more often occurs when requests for information are framed with statements like "we're beginners and have only climbed Adams/Hood/Helens".

 

In the particular case of you asking for advice about Fisher Chimneys, you stated that ya'll were beginners. Someone without crevasse rescue skills, basic rock/steep snow climbing experience would likely have a rough time on a semi-technical route like FC with a relatively high chance of something going wrong resulting in a nasty situation.

 

I asked for advice, received it, and maade my own judgement.

 

Good for you. And you also exhibited good judgement by heading down in shitty conditions even when a partner wanted to press on.

[Geek_the_Greek]

Hi Rollo- Good read.

That is about as blatanly retarded and irresponsible as I have seen in a while.

 

They got what they fucking deserved.

 

 

 

...the many faces of the Cavester...

[Cpt.Caveman]

A good read could mean many things. Including entertaining.

 

It doesn't mean I condone their actions or plans.

 

I can't believe they let people like them breed!

 

Did you have something else to add?

[Lambone]

they shulda just busted out the cell phone

[eternalX]

I think this more often occurs when requests for information are framed with statements like "we're beginners and have only climbed Adams/Hood/Helens".

 

In the particular case of you asking for advice about Fisher Chimneys, you stated that ya'll were beginners. Someone without crevasse rescue skills, basic rock/steep snow climbing experience would likely have a rough time on a semi-technical route like FC with a relatively high chance of something going wrong resulting in a nasty situation.

 

 

I think I said some of us have only done those trips, not everyone. In the end I realized I misjudged everyone's skillz and we paid.

 

The funny thing is that you see a lot of advice on here that's "Go for it and try not to die"

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

they shulda just busted out the cell phone

 

Don't work up there to my knowledge.

[tomtom]

Yeah. And let's start a thread to flame Reinhold Messner.

 

Been done ...

 

JUNE 27, 1970. Two Tyrolean brothers, Reinhold and Günther Messner, stand atop 26,660-foot Nanga Parbat, in Pakistan's western Himalayas. Having snatched the first ascent of one of the biggest alpine walls on earth, the 14,763-foot Rupal Face, they shed their frozen felt mittens to shake hands and embrace.

 

But things turn bad when they start down. Günther, 24, has followed his brother to the top despite the 18-member team's plan for Reinhold, 25, to summit alone. Exhausted, he develops altitude sickness and, because neither brother has a rope, cannot descend by the same steep route. They blunder down the west side of the peak, succeeding only in cutting themselves off from the Rupal side entirely. After a bivouac near 26,000 feet, Günther becomes delirious. Seeing two teammates, Felix Kuen and Peter Scholz, ascending the Rupal Face, Reinhold cries for help—but they are too far away to understand his pleas. So the brothers make a life-or-death decision: They will head down the opposite side of the mountain via the less steep, but unexplored, 13,300-foot Diamir Face.

 

The epic that ensued—Günther and Reinhold's two-day descent down uncharted territory, Günther's June 29 disappearance in a reported avalanche, and Reinhold's frantic search of the debris field and grief-stricken escape through the Diamir Valley—is the defining experience of Reinhold Messner's life, and it's described in his 40th book, The Naked Mountain, to be published for the first time in English in November by The Mountaineers Books. What U.S. readers may not hear about is the firestorm that the German edition sparked in Europe. In books written as direct rebuttals to The Naked Mountain, two members of the expedition claim that Messner's story is a whitewash of the truth—that he abandoned his brother on the peak.

 

"There is a big lie behind Reinhold's story," says Hans Saler, a 56-year-old mountain guide now based in Puc—n, Chile. In his June 2003 book Between Light and Shadow: The Messner Tragedy on Nanga Parbat, he claims Messner sacrificed Günther for his own ambition, an allegation echoed in The Traverse: Günther Messner's Death on Nanga Parbat—Expedition Members Break Their Silence, by fellow team member Max von Kienlin, a 69-year-old baron who lives in Munich.

 

Both climbers say that Messner's descent of the Diamir Face was not an emergency escape—that, though this was his first Himalayan expedition, he planned all along to traverse the entire mountain solo and score a first on an 8,000-meter peak. Most astonishingly, both claim that Günther never accompanied Reinhold down the face at all. Instead, von Kienlin and Saler maintain, Reinhold left his brother near the summit to find his own way down, and Günther died descending the Rupal side, alone and unseen. Messner, they say, has been changing his story ever since to deflect his guilt.

 

This bitter controversy began when The Naked Mountain hit German bookstores in February 2002. Angered by Messner's portrayal of what happened on Nanga Parbat, the world's ninth-highest peak, and by his claims on German radio and TV that the team didn't bother to search for the missing brothers, Saler aired his long-simmering grievances in an open letter to Messner circulated on the Internet and published in German newspapers.

 

"In your book you play brilliantly on the keyboard of self-pity," he wrote. "Everybody kept silent about what had actually happened on the wall. Our silence had to do with loyalty, a foreign word for you. You are an excellent climber, but a good comrade? NO!"

[bobbyperu]

whats bad style is being narrow minded, and relying on other peoples opinions to guide your own experience. advice is one thing, but know the source, and don't emulate others, rely on YOURSELF, and do what feels best to YOU. these are charecters on this site, however experienced they sound, or all knowing they come across as take it all with a grain of salt.

 

by the way, the flip flops were used on the approach to the lake...then tennies to the base, mythos on route,and tennies again for skiing down the perfectly timed soft sno to the lake. this style or lack thereof should mean nothing to anyone else but me and my partner on that givin day. partnership- you know trust in someone elses judgment based on experience together... i had been on the route before with ropes and belays and all that good stuff, i had a blast and imagined it'd be casual without all the stuff, we carried all the necessities( for us) to feel good, including wearing harnessses on the route in case we wanted to pitch anything out. skuzzy was going a vue and thought it would be fun to start soloing and see how it felt with our back-up in place... we had ablast! next time the stuff can stay in the car. but late in the season i'd be tempted to carry along somethin for the hard sno/ ice that i know is there...

 

but call my style whatever you want...i really could give a shit