Replacing Alpine Bolts

[John Frieh]

Preferences/opinions on replacing bolts on an alpine rock route? Before shouting "chop them" please consider these are bolts that were placed on lead only when natural protection was not an option. Size recommendations? Is removing them and leaving the bolt holes for removable bolts a viable option? Current bolts are quarters…

 

Thanks in advance for a friendly constructive discussion.

[DPS]

Clipping a big, fat 3/8 inch bolt in the mountains make me warm all over. Bolts are like trees, if you remove one you should plant a new one. (Unless those bolts happened to have sprouted near a prefectly good crack).

[Lambone]

Although i admit to not having much experience in this....my recomendation would be to:

 

-Remove the 1/4 inchers with a "tuning fork" (pad it to avoid scaring the rock.

-Drill (hand if in a Wilderness area) out the size of the hole to 3/8"

-Replace with bomber 5 piece SS Rawl and Metolius colored hanger.

 

If you can't reuse the hole, patch with apoxy and rock dust to camouflage the scar. And drill a new one 5" away from the old hole.

 

Removable Bolts are BS.

[John Frieh]

Removable Bolts are BS.

 

But they are beautiful pieces in pin scars...

 

Thanks guys... you both described my plan (though I have never used this tuning fork... more info? pics?).

 

Any reason I shouldn't? I have the FA climbers blessing to replace them...

[Alex]

though I have never used this tuning fork... more info? pics?

 

http://www.safeclimbing.org/

[mattp]

You can get the "tuning fork" at an automotive tool shop.

It is a "ball joint separator" or something like that. It is lighter than a crow bar. It will pull out old 1/4" bolts like butter, but not necessarily 3/8" ones.

 

I don't know where your bolts are, but I would not use powder coated hangers for most alpine rock climbs where the bolts are likely to be quite few and far between. The damn things can be hard to spot.

[catbirdseat]

You can get the "tuning fork" at an automotive tool shop.

It is a "ball joint separator" or something like that. It is lighter than a crow bar. It will pull out old 1/4" bolts like butter, but not necessarily 3/8" ones.

 

I don't know where your bolts are, but I would not use powder coated hangers for most alpine rock climbs where the bolts are likely to be quite few and far between. The damn things can be hard to spot.

Like on Dark Rhythm, for example?

[Lambone]

hard to spot...?

 

gimme a freaking break...why not just paint them hot pink then...jeeze.

[mattp]

I have put a lot of effort into replacing unsightly webbing heaps with chain and replacing shiny hangers with painted ones on rock climbing crags, but, yes, I believe they "can be" hard to spot.

 

As I said, I don't know where his bolts are going, but most "alpine rock climbs" are not located where the bolts are going to be seen by anyone but a climber on the route in question. That person is not likely to be offended by the sight of the bolt he or she is looking to clip into. Unless there is a reason to worry about visual impact as in the case where this "alpine rock" is near a trail or it is heavily laden with hardware or something, I would not place a premium on camouflaging the bolts.

 

Hot pink would be a little excessive, in my opinion.

 

Jeeze.

[Lambone]

what about climbers that don't appreciate the visual impact of bright shiny bolts? possibility? I have read somewhere that they exist.

[mattp]

I am one of them, Lammy, but its all a matter of context.

 

Again, the question was about an alpine rock climb. I know of very few alpin rock climbs anywhere (yes there are some but probably less than 5% of the routes out there) where bolts present a large visual impact.

[Ducknut]

hard to spot...?

 

gimme a freaking break...why not just paint them hot pink then...jeeze.

 

I was thinking of using hot pink plastic surveyors tape to mark them. But hot pink and glow in the dark spray paint on the hanger and on the surrounding rock just might be better.

[Lambone]

I just think that bolts that match the rock are nice...that's all. Not trying to start an argument here. I don't agree with using shiny bolts just so climbers can see them easier.

 

same goes for fixed slings

I think it's too bad the colored ones don't get used more often.

[Off_White]

I can easily imagine moments when I would greatly appreciate a hot pink hanger. I agree with Mattp that camoflage on an alpine route is not such an issue. The upgrade to 3/8 is a public service, and I can't see any reason not to do it NOLse.

[scott_johnston]

I think that this is a useful discussion for this board. We climb in an area that saw early development before the current wilderness and anti bolting ethic was so pervasive.

Back in the day what usually limited bolting was the shear effort of placing one.

Hence we have a bunch of old 1/4 inchers out there. Many of these were placed by true pioneers and some we may want to preserve as a testament to the pioneering spirit that opened many of the alpine routes we enjoy so much today. Most were placed for aid or emergerncy rap stations when no other option presented itself with no thought to future climbers who now 40-50 years later recoil in horror at these rusted puny relics.

 

Here are a few examples that I am very familiar with and how I have chosen to view them.

 

1) SW rib on SEW spire. I guide this route often and love it. On about the 7th pitch (depending on how you do the route) there is a 1/4 incher with an aluminum hanger next to a bottoming rounded crack on a 5.5 area (see Red Fred for topo). I used to contemplate replacing it with a new 3/8" but on further consideration have opted to leave it. It was probably placed by the FA party and enabled them to create what, I at least, consder to be one of the best routes at WA pass for its grade. Their protection options in 1964 would have been limited to pitons which would have made a very shakey piece of pro in this rounded, wide, bottoming crack. Today a 2" inch cam offfers a solid piece for the leader . The bolt gives a little historical perspective to the climb and I would encourage everyone who passes it to respect what went before rather than think they are "cleaning up the mountains" by removing it.

 

2)Likewise for the summit of Chanti Spire (and other spires in the WA pass area). There is dicey, unprotected 5.7 boulder problem to stand on the actual summit. It is likely that Joe Hieb and Art Maki placed the one 1/4" bolt and home made hanger there in 1952 after making the first ascent of what was then a minor peak in a very remote area just so that they could "safetly" rap off the top rather than do the exposed down climb (maybe ever wearing Tricouni nailed boots). How many of us would have to gumption to hike from the head of the Twisp river road over two passes, pioneer a new route with primative gear in bold style and then rap off a single 1/4" bolt? Those guys deserve our respect and this bolt should be left as a memorial to them. Today anyone who has climbed Chianti wearing modern sticky rubber can certainly down climb the summit block in resonable safety. It is all too easy to develop a myopic view when viewing historical events because we can only compare them to our own experiences which in this case include power drills, fat bolts, and mostly the huge influence of sport climbing.

3)Direct E Butt of SEW spire; The old aid ladders that were laboriously bolted were made up of hastily (as hastily as can be done) placed 1/4" bolts. Again, this effort allowed the first ascensionists (Beckey and Leen) to create what has become one of the classic high quality free climbing test pieces of the area. Someone replaced a strategic number of these aid bolts with a few 3/8" modern bolts. Now these pitches are regularly done free making this route what it has become: A classic and a true memorial to the FA party rather than some obscure or forgotten A0 line. In my world this was a good and judicious use of retro bolting.

4)Tooth and Claw on Lexington tower was a bold ground up climb by gifted climbers. The bolts on it were placed on lead and hence in convenient spots not really needed spots. The bolts on the first pitch are of dubious quality making the leader contemplate very insecure and sustained 5.11 friction 30-40' out from very questionable pro with the pitch ending at ledge with a shakey bush for an anchor. Sounds inviting doesn't it? This really is a fine route but I would bet we could count the number of ascents it has had in the intervening 15 years and have a few toes left over. But just maybe it should be left as a testament to the boldness of the FA party. Sadly half of that party is now dead and can't be consulted.

 

I bring up these few examples mainly to get people to think creatively and critically about this issue. Many of you know of other climbs and bolts or lack of bolts, some subtle and some blatant. It ain't as black and white as I have heard bantered around on this board. Each climb deserves careful attention with regard to the history, safety and future use.

 

I for one encourage discussion of this topic.

 

Resectfully, Scott Johnston

[mattp]

It is indeed pretty cool to come upon historic relics sometimes and there is a time and place for them to be preserved. This is true not only in the Wilderness but even at roadside crags. I think many of us have seen the bolts on the East Buttress, the old ring pitons on Midway, or the huge iron rings at Index -- and thought it was pretty cool to see this little bit of history in our vertical museum. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Rad]

Consulting the first ascentionists and getting their blessing sounds like a thoughtful and respectful way to handle this.

[ScottP]

hard to spot...?

gimme a freaking break...why not just paint them hot pink then...jeeze.

 

and

 

Not trying to start an argument here.

 

Seems to me a dichotomy on this particular site.

 

Anyway...

 

I'm guessing the route in question gets a bit of traffic, and might even be a rung on the ladder of routes for aspiring alpinists.

 

On most alpine routes one won't necessarily expect bolts to be popping up on a regular basis, so to happen upon a bolt, let alone a good bolt, when it's particularly wanted would be a bit serendipitous.

 

I guess somewhere between dayglo pink and chameleon would be a good compromise in this ever increasingly crowded climbing world.

 

Thread drift ahead...

 

It is indeed pretty cool to come upon historic relics sometimes and there is a time and place for them to be preserved. This is true not only in the Wilderness but even at roadside crags. I think many of us have seen the bolts on the East Buttress, the old ring pitons on Midway, or the huge iron rings at Index

 

This was pretty much my point when I made such a big, albeit, unpopular stink about the bolt ladder on Town Crier. It is a pitch with a clean fall if any of the originals blew and to this day I believe it should have been left as it was, the bolts only to be replaced if the originals gave way.

 

On a final note, Scott Johnson mentioned the bolt on SW rib on SEW spire being all the FA party had as an option for pro. Not unlike the chopped bolt on the fifth pitch of Outer Space, in my opinion.

 

My apologies for the randomness...I don't post much.

 

 

[MisterMo]

It is indeed pretty cool to come upon historic relics sometimes and there is a time and place for them to be preserved. This is true not only in the Wilderness but even at roadside crags. I think many of us have seen the bolts on the East Buttress, the old ring pitons on Midway, or the huge iron rings at Index -- and thought it was pretty cool to see this little bit of history in our vertical museum. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

FYI, although this may be common knowledge, the huge rings at Index are remnants from the quarry operation. The Lee Pickett photos of that(and other Sky Valley stuff) are accessible online at the UW library if anyone is curious. Don't remember the URL but I think it's easy to find if you just google his name. Saturdays thru the end of Sept. the little Index Museum across from the store has some excellent big prints of the old quarry up on the wall.

[Lambone]

those huge rings should be painted bright pink...I almost couldn't find the anchor last time I did that climb!

[chucK]

Painting those rings would be dangerous and irresponsible as the paint would hide how rusty those things are.

 

Those rings are timebombs! Accidents waiting to happen. I'm amazed noone's died yet.

[mattp]

If that was your argument about Town Crier, Scott, it was lost on me. You wrote that replacing those bolts with new ones took all the adventure out of the route because subsequent parties would not have to be careful but could simply yard away. This, you said, removed the challenge and made it into a vertical hike.

 

Perhaps a Town Crier compromise might have been to do as David Gunstone did on the East Buttress of South Early Winter Spire, and "strategically" replace only some of the bolts but leave at least enough for people to be able to "appreciate" the originals? Apart from bolt ladders, I can think of few situations where I would advocate this and I generally don't think I would advise it for what is often treated as a "training climb" like Town Crier. I think the East Buttress is a better setting for this kind of treatment.

 

In general, I am not in favor of leaving "time bombs" on the rock. I'd rather see the rusty old bolts as souvenirs on somebody's mantel. But Scott notes a couple of places where he suggests that modern climbers don't need to use the old hardware and it doesn't constitute a hazard. When making such a call, I believe we should ask ourselves what the prospect is for someone, perhaps on retreat or in the dark, to actually rely upon the old bolt in question.

 

I jacked out a few rusty old bolts with 20-year-recalled Leeper hangers on them just the other day because they were in an area where people rappel in the dark. Not infrequently, I have come upon newly installed retreat slings on old rusty bolts when there were relatively new ones or a good solid tree not far away.

 

Another alternative for certain settings is to do as was done on Canary at Castle Rock and place a new one near the original, but I have always looked at the rusty spinners there and wondered why the guy who replaced them didn't use the old holes. You stand there, face to face with them, contemplating difficult moves and I find the rusty old relics visually obtrusive more than a fascinating bit of history.

[John Frieh]

I won’t be painting my bolts pink (I get enough shit as it is around here for my bandanas) but am considering using Metolius enviro hangers only because I was under the impression they have a longer life than standard SS hangers. Does anyone know if this is true? If it is not I will use SS hangers. Additionally I think we all agree on the diameter; but what about the length? The rock is high quality granite and the route(s) will see little traffic (i.e less than prusik or anything at WA pass). As the route(s) are least 20 miles from the nearest road I have opted to not carry a power drill (unless I can hide it in the boss’s pack )... As I would like to have some gas left in the tank to actually climb after replacing the bolts I would like to sneak by with the minimal amount of drilling. So… length suggestions considering I have to carry this shit 20 miles and then climb?

 

WRT Scott_johnston’s comments: I think the bottom line is leave bolts where they lie unless there replacement is absolutely necessary to maintain a level of acceptable safety.

[Geek_the_Greek]

I don't know, I think when contemplating an old bolt you have to think about why it was placed there. Was it to create art? Were the first ascentionists trying to express themselves or make a creative statement?

 

I think a fair assumption is that most of the time, they were scared or concerned enough about a fall that they wanted some pro. For us to view bolts as anything other than protection is missing the point. If a bolt has outlived its safe (useful) life, it's no longer serving its purpose. I say don't paint them pink, but don't camouflage them either. On granite, where the rock is a black and white mosaic of shadows, it's often hard enough to see bolts as it is without artificially making it more difficult.

 

For those who seek it, there's plenty of opportunity to hurt oneself on lead-bolted alpine routes without resorting to purposely leaving shitty bolts. If someone's thinking about replacing rusty quarter-inchers, I say to them.

 

"Changes aren't permanent, but change is."

Edited September 15, 2004 by Geek_the_Greek

[willstrickland]

As for the "how long" question:

 

In good granite, a 3/8" by 2.5" is pretty standard.

 

 

I am generally for re-using the existing hole if possible, but let me bring this scenario into the discussion because I know you (NOLSe) have seen it first hand:

 

WF NEWS, undercling pitch has a rusty 1/4". About 3 or 4ft above it, a new 3/8" stainless was placed. The old bolt and hanger (which actually look pretty good for what they are) were left in place. I think it was wise to move that placement if you were going to replace the bolt because it protects the moves better than the original spot. However, leaving that old bolt in place creates it's own problem. Some people will not see the new bolt until they have resigned themselves to the old one and moved well past both of them. I was contemplating whether to clip the old one or just skip it and climb through when I happened to lean back and look up to scope the rest of the pitch. That's when I noticed the new bolt.

 

So while I can apperciate to some extent the historical aspect of the old one, I think it should have been removed and patched. Not a big deal either way, just one more twist on the issue and in the same area as Scott was discussing.