M-16 rifles

[johndavidjr]

Local Jersey cops hard by the Hudson River now carrying these things on guard-duty. I asked one and he said it was from Vietnam-era. I then asked him about the front sight, which seemed set an inch above the muzzle. He said it's set for 300 yards and he's a crack shot. I thought these were short-range rifles not meant to be particularly accurate. I think cop was provided disinformation. Can anybody explain the attachment above muzzle (not the flash-guard)?

 

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[Lionel_Hutz]

I was in the Army. The front sight post is raised so it is aligned with the rear sight, which is set into the carrying handle.

 

The cop did not provide disinformation. The M-16 is a very accurate rifle. If you're a decent shot and your rifle is sighted properly, you can hit humah silhouettes at 300 meters regularly. 300 meter targets are a regular part of the M-16 qualification. I spent one day shooting @ a distance range. I hit a couple of human silhouettes @ 500 meters w/ open sights. My experience was w/ the M-16A2, so I can't speak for vietnam-era rifles.

 

Get some...

[Cpt.Caveman]

The modern m16 with normal length barrel can regularly shoot out to 300 meters extremely accurately. This is common knowledge... Also if the dillweed behind the gun cannot shoot or see or both then well of course the maximum effective range is reduced...

 

In fact there are numerous 300 meter targets on the 40 target exposure set of BRM.

 

Also it is possible to sight and hit targets "semi" accurately out to 550 meters with automatic fire according to some "official" military sources.

 

Also the front sight post - you should post a photo to debate. Reason is because if it wasnt raised up about one inch I would suggest it could be modified beyond standard expectations for one reason or another.

[johndavidjr]

I guess I just didn't think about rear sight when examining rifle. Remarkable answer about its accuracy. So the gripe about Vietnam M-16 was just about stopping-power? I mean, I understand you wouldn't try downing an elk at 300 yds with one of these things...I imagine it had/has high capacity, though cops' clips were only a few inches long.

 

 

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[ashw_justin]

I imagine it had/has high capacity, though cops' clips were only a few inches long.

 

Hmm... symbolic deterrent? Workplace ergonomics?

[slothrop]

M-16 rounds are relatively small, light, and very fast, AFAIK. Perhaps the rounds would just go right through a body at short range, thus not much stopping power?

[DPS]

The M-16 fires a light, high velocity .223 slug that is designed to tumble through the body and break apart into bits of lead and copper. It would suck to get hit by one IMHO.

 

Early complaints of the M-16 involved problems with them jamming during combat use. This problem was solved by chroming the breach.

[badvoodoo]

The extent of my knowledge of Vietnam-era weaponry extends only to the History channel, so take it as you will, but per a couple shows I've seen, the main gripe with the M16 wasn't the stopping power, it was its tendancy to jam easily. According to one of these shows, troops in the field often favored picking up AKs dropped by Charlie troops, but had to limit the practice due to suffering friendly fire, since the AK had a very distinctive sound.

[DPS]

Funny, I learned everything I know about weaponry through the history channel too.

[Dru]

well this thing is even harder than M16

[lancegranite]

Guns of the German army...

The .223 is a welder, my mini 14 was a most accurate rifle.

Not to mention that a lighter cartridge can have less recoil.

This gives the shooter a quicker and more accurate follow up shot.

Of course, a nail is only as straight as the hand that drives it.

[willstrickland]

Technically, the caliber is 5.56x45. The civy equivalent is called .223 Remington although it is something of a misnomer because it is actually closer to .222.

 

But, since there were already two existing "triple duece" calibers (i.e. .222) they called it .223. Contrary to conventional wisdom, there is a very slight difference in the rounds at the necking of the cartridge which will cause about a 10-20% higher chamber pressure than the (.223) weapon is designed for when firing a 5.65 through a .223 chambered weapon.

 

The typical round in these calibers is a 55grain. The 54 grain tracers will trace out to 500-550m. These calibers are fast and have a relatively flat trajectory...perfect for hitting small targets at medium distances. The .223 is a fairly popular "varmint" caliber for hunting groundhogs, prarie dogs, etc because of those characteristics.

 

For comparison, a whitetailed deer is roughly the same size range as humans. Most hunters consider .223 much too small a caliber for deer (although my next-door neighbor hunted with one for 20 years) and look for at least a 100grain bullet, preferably >140. Not many deer hunters out there carrying anything less than a .243

[Fairweather]

The .223 (aka 5.56mm) used in the "M-16" is not legal for hunting in this state. The rules, last time I checked, required minimum .24cal and at least 900ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. While the .223 generates over 1200 ft/lbs, it falls short in the diameter dept. Ironically, some less powerful cartridges are legal such as the .44magnum. The AK-47 fires the Soviet 7.62x39mm and is legal to hunt with here, although I don't think it is currently a very popular cartridge.

 

I believe the reason the US adopted the .223, despite its inferior knock-down power, is its range, as Cavey pointed out, and the fact that a soldier/platoon can carry more ammo into the field due to the smaller cartridge size. The AKs' were basically built as field-grade weapons and the machined parts were built to some pretty loose tolerances so they would not be as suseptible to natural elements. The M-16 was built to much finer tolerances and is therefore more prone to jamming when not cleaned/handled properly, or when inferior ammo is used.

 

FYI, a bolt-action rifle (like most hunters use) is always a superior weapon for long range shooting. The solid lock-up does not lend itself to small wobbles (as the bullet leaves the muzzle) and gas-operation inconsistencies present in most semi-autos. The only popular rifle cartridge that crosses the Hunter-Military line currently is the Winchester .308, also known as the 7.62x54mm NATO.

 

Now ya' know....

[johndavidjr]

Now I know some things, but not everything. Is this a machine gun, in the Jimmy Cagney sense? Is the Sturm Ruger Mini-14 the same caliber? Who gives a damn about accuraccy if the point is just to blast the hell out of a target with a zillion rounds? How many rounds can the cop shoot and how many rounds could GI Joe shoot with this thing in Vietnamn?? Why isn't it used for deer hunting? How much do they cost and where can I get one??

 

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[ashw_justin]

oooo the technology of killing implements can be so interesting!

[bigbong]

Like having as foreskin man... keep it clean, it's a KILLER...

[Fairweather]

Now I know some things, but not everything. Is this a machine gun, in the Jimmy Cagney sense? Is the Sturm Ruger Mini-14 the same caliber? Who gives a damn about accuraccy if the point is just to blast the hell out of a target with a zillion rounds? How many rounds can the cop shoot and how many rounds could GI Joe shoot with this thing in Vietnamn?? Why isn't it used for deer hunting? How much do they cost and where can I get one??

 

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http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1835&return=Y

 

Yes, the Mini 14 (Ruger mfg.) uses the same round. Ruger also makes a version in the 7.62x39mm called the "Mini 30". They are strictly semi-automatic. They'll cost you about $400-$500. I don't know if a fully automatic version was ever created, but it would (should!) be illegal for the general public. You can get pre-ban magazines that hold 30 rounds, but what's the point?? They come with 5 round magazines.

 

As for "just blasting the hell out of something", you would be amazed at the ineffectiveness of your typical thug with a weapon of this type. Holes everywhere!...but not likely on target. A calm, motivated police/marine sniper with good location and a bolt-gun would make quick work of an idiot like this.... and dozens of his friends too.

[bigbong]

You've been watching to much T.V. ....

[jjd]

 

[gotterdamerung]

There was a short and ill noted discussion on ammunition on the spray forum a while back. Blended ammunition technology and a 77 grain 5.56 hollowpoint. Do a search for Ben Thomas and it should show up.

 

Also the M16 rile was replaced by 3 variations and then completely changed over for a shortened version known as the M4. The new systems are modular which allow for easy facilitating of optics, lights and essential cool guy gadgetry. The modern weapons were reported to be accurate out to 450M as is out of the box, but heavy barrel M4's with optics are typically used for interdiction as far out as 800m. There is also a .50 cal version known as Beowulf and a 7.62 version for familiarity and longer range. For high speed vehicle takedowns I recommend a short AK or an MP5K.

[gotterdamerung]

Found it

 

Blended ammunition

[Rodchester]

The M-16 fires a light, high velocity .223 slug that is designed to tumble through the body and break apart into bits of lead and copper. It would suck to get hit by one IMHO.

 

Early complaints of the M-16 involved problems with them jamming during combat use. This problem was solved by chroming the breach.

 

Mostly correct. The chroming of the barrel was critical to its effectiveness. The 5.56 round of the Vietnam era is no longer in use my the military. The powder behind the round changed mutiple times in the testing phases (early 1960s) and then again once the rifle was fielded to line troops. Another major, yet rarely discussed change, is the revolution ratio of the round.

 

If I recall correctly the older Vietnam era round was a 1/11 ratio. This gave the round the ability to tumble once it hit something, say hitting a man in the arm yet exiting his chest and tearing up bone and flesh in the process. The theroy was that the tumble would make up for what it lacked in knock down power. The problem with this approach is that it would also tumble when it hit a small branch, or most anything. It simply lacked penetration power. Accordingly, its accuruacy in combat was greatly effected. Also, the round itself was not a dumb-dumb styple round designed to seperate on impact, only tumble.

 

The newer round adopted in the mid to late 1980s (Standard NATO Ball) still has the high velocity, but at 1/7 revolutions it is a maximum stabilty round. So, it does not tumble nearly as much as the Vietnam era round and it will not do as much damage. However, it is more accurate (in combat) and it has FAR greater penetration. In fact I workled with FN on upgrading the M249 SAW in 1987 and during which time we tested the 5.56 (SAW) against the 7.62 (M60) ands concluded that the 5.56 actually had better penetration on steel at 200 meters and roughly similar on wood at 200 meters. This really surprised me.

 

The new round when fird from a SAW can be accurate on "area" targets up to 700 meters if I recall correctly.

 

As many here have stated the M16 is a good weapon with a good round. 300 meters really is nothing. Most of the older M16s have been refitted with 1/7 barrels.

[johndavidjr]

Thanks. I feel a little better. Gray squirrel season starts tomorrow.

[Billygoat]

I just fired a mini-14 a couple weekends ago and find that to be a great rifle with little recoil. I shot an AR-15 as well and thought it sucked

 

My favorite has been the SKS paratroopers carbine: Inexpensive, servicable and very accurate.

 

I have a case of East German, full metal jacket military rounds dated 1958, 7.62 X 39, and they have quite the penetrating power. The only thing that has stopped them was the front brake rotor from an old pick up truck. After shooting that a few dozen times we found these curious little pins, cylinders actually, that were around the said rotor. We matched them to the circular indentations left in the rotor where our bullets impacted. It seems these are inside of each bullet as a kind of "penetrator". The weird thing was they were not deformed the least bit from their impact with the steel of the rotor! Anyone know anything about this...?

[Lars]

depleted uranium blended nazi alloy thingamajig.

dont put them in your pocket or they will shrivel your nads.