jdog Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 So I got a $50 ticket down at Mt. Adams a couple of months ago for not displaying my NW forest pass. I blew it off not thinking much about it, but now i have recieved an official court summons down in vancouver. To me this is f-in ridiculous. I actually had a pass, but forgot to display it. Frankly I don't want to waste my time in driving down to fight this stupid ass ticket, but i also don't feel like I should have to pay the damn thing because I actually have a freakin pass. I figure they will require me to show a receipt for the purchase of that pass if I wanted to fight it, but I did not save the reciept. I am curious what other people have done when they have gotten these tickets and subsequent summons? Should I blow it off, fight it, or just pay it. I am pissed. This whole forest pass thing is out of f-in control. Quote
Ireneo_Funes Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 First time I've ever heard of someone actually getting a summons. The NW Forest Pass is bullshit -- don't encourage them by paying it. Take a stand, fight the power. Quote
Dru Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 just send them a photocopy of the pass and a photo of you with it and let them know its cheaper for them to accept you have a pass and let you off than to go thru the bullshit enforcement. Quote
bigwalling Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Can't you write something? I did that for my orgeon fishing ticket(I don't even keep the fish!). I plead "no contest" and wrote a letter. Still haven't heard back but my ticket was for $299 so you got off light!!!!!!!!! Quote
BreezyD Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 $50!!! My ticket at Heliotrope Ridge Trailhead (because my crazy Dad forgot to stick the pass in the windshield) was only $5. Has the penalty gone up? Quote
iain Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Several people have received court summons. It's easy to say fight the power when you do not have a court summons in front of you! Do you also have to have that volcano pass if you have the NW forest pass? If so, that's ridiculous! I think people have sent in photocopies of their passes before. I would guess it is expensive for the forest service to go to court since they probably have to bring in the ticketing ranger, on overtime pay, to testify. Seems like a pain for all involved, but it's not like the USFS is known for their logic, fairness, and simplicity. Quote
Ireneo_Funes Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 It's easy to say fight the power when you do not have a court summons in front of you! Yeah, but I couldn't resist dropping some PE on y'all. Seriously, though, if we all just go along with it and pay our fines (justified or not) quietly and without complaint, it'll just keep getting worse. I'm not saying just blow it off - I'm saying write, complain, make it a pain for them. Photocopying the pass (if you've got one), etc. sounds like a reasonable thing to do in this case. Quote
rbw1966 Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Do a search on here for an earlier discussion of this topic. Also search google for some creative ways of beating this. Quote
John Frieh Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I got the same $50 ticket near Leavenworth. We were packing up to go home and a female ranger and a male ranger walked up. He checked my dash for a pass (which I didn’t have) and asked if I had one to which I responded no. I added that I leaving at that moment. She told him (I guess he was in training) to ticket me and went on to hand out other tickets. He was very cordial with me and could tell I was very annoyed at the fact I was getting ticketed. He stated he could either write the ticket with or without my driver’s license. I told him I was not fishing my license out for him to ticket me. We went about writing the ticket, gave to me and left. McKenzie and I finished packing and were about to leave when the female ranger returned and demanded to see my drivers license. I asked her why she needed it and she stated she needed it to complete the ticket I was just issued. I asked how she tickets people when they are on the trail and she said they run there plates. I told to go ahead and run my plates as I was not going to give her my license. She asked me what I do when a police officer pulls me over for speeding and I responded I comply because he is citing me for a breaking a law. She on the other hand was trying to cite me for breaking a test program rule (Not a law!) and that I was going to exercise my first amendment right to peacefully protest this form of double taxation. She got very mad and practically yelled to see my license again. I responded again (I was very polite the whole time) no. She then told me I was “in direct violation of disobeying a federal officer” and turns to her sidekick and asks him if “did you go do what I told you to do?” As I didn’t know if this meant bear darts or black helicopters or both I got in my truck and drove. I should point out that she was not driving a FS vehicle with police lights. I anticipate she has called for the FS equivalent of a deputy/sheriff which I saw the rest of the weekend cruising the canyon. I haven’t heard anything since (that was Juneish). My guess is it was either due to a) the home address I have registered with the OR DMV is not current so they can’t find me b) WA state FS monkeys can’t run out of state plates c) I will get notification any day These days I remove my license plates at any trailhead that requires a forest pass and make sure my VIN # is covered. There is no law that says you have to display plates on a parked vehicle and if they wait for you just say your plates got stolen. I would have gone to court to fight the ticket but I fear a “disobeying a federal officer” ticket is waiting for me. I would encourage you to go to court and fight it; perhaps some of the lawyers on this page would consider helping you out. Quote
dbb Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Great story! Laurin the Toolette. That licence plate trick is pretty extreme, but is actually pretty clever. Are you sure about it being ok to have a vehicle that is not licenced parked off private property? If you piss 'em of good enough, you might just come back to an impound notice. Anyone know about this? Also jdog, just call them and explain that you already have a pass and would be happy to send them a photocopy. The year long pass is marked w/ the date/year so it should be obvious that you had it when you were ticketed. Quote
John Frieh Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 To impound it they would have to tow it which would merit some serious effort on there part (good example: Teanaway road) plus would they really want to risk it? Any and all damage occurred in towing would be there fault and they would have to foot the bill for it; especially if you claimed your plates were stolen (how they gonna prove you took them off?). Is forest service land really considered private property? Isn't it public land? I would like to see the law that says your car has to display plates when parked... anybody know if that is true? Quote
Mtguide Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Log on to Scott Silver's website ,www.wildwilderness.org,or email him at:< ssilver@wildwilderness.org >.He's the longtime originator,spearhead,clearinghouse and incarnate driving force of the anti-fee-demo(NW Forest Pass) campaign.He will have all the info you'll need to make a clear decision on how to handle it if you want to fight it.And I definitely encourage you not to just lay down and roll over to these bastards.The motto among my friends and I has been for years,that the only fees we'll pay would be fines,and we don't intend to pay those either. Scott can tell you all about the origins of the abusive and greedy Fee-Demo program,which is actually the result of many years of effort by the American Recreation Coalition(a consortium of motorized recreation,commercial development-oriented corporations--including RV,ATV,snowmobile and dirtbike makers,Exxon,Disney,Westin Hotels,KOA-you get the picture)to gain more access for motorized,amusement theme-park type industrialized outdoor rec destinations,and to privatize (in other words,make you pay)access to our public lands.They've been highly organized and pushing hard on this since 1978!! With the aid of both conservative Republicans and Democrats from eastern and midwest states with minimal public lands compared to what we have out here,they've conspired to starve the USFS trails and recreation programs of funding by cutting funds,creating artificial shortages and funding crises,which the ARC is only too happy to step in to remedy with their various and sundry privatization schemes,applicable to a wide variety of sites and local situations.If we don't beat these bastards back now,there will eventually be No place and Nothing you will be able to access without paying,and once fees are in place,they will only rise,as they get things more securely locked up and monopolized. And yes,though I may sound harsh, these people are indeed bastards,greedy pricks and selfish assholes who will stop at nothing to get it all.These are NOT nice people. They have utterly corrupted the USFS,BLM and Park Service,and have many bought-and-paid-for Senators and Congressmen in their pockets.Fee-Demo might seem like a minor,back-burner issue,but nothing less than the integrity of our democracy is at stake.It is but one piece of a larger puzzle in which the corporations are moving toward total control of our government. If this sounds far-fetched,if you don't believe me,talk to Scott Silver.There's also been a fairly regular commentator about this on this website;do a search.This isn't the first time this stuff has come up on this site.So buck up,get informed,and GIVE 'EM HELL!I mean really GIVE 'EM HELL! Oh,and did I mention,GIVE 'EM HELL!! Quote
rbw1966 Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 NOLSe, while creative, is going to get someone in big trouble. First off, you are required by law to notify the Oregon DMV of your corrected address within 30 days of moving. Its a pretty hefty fine if caught. I am sure WA has a similar law. Also, in many areas, a vehicle parked on public property for more than 24 hours OR without a current, legal license plate can be considered 'abandoned' and towed (I know this is true in Oregon). Finally, if they tow your car because you dont have any plates on it neither the tow truck nor the agency calling in the tow is responsible for any damage done to your vehicle. You parked it there illegally. I hate the fee demo program too and go out of my way to avoid paying the fees associated with it (never got a ticket yet--just a warning). However, this is just bad advice and can lead to worse consequences. Fight the power! Quote
marylou Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Considering that Congress has basically eviscerated the FS's budget, I'd kindly suggest you whiners STFU and pay the money. ESPECIALLY this year after the weather event of last fall did so much road and trail damage all over the Cascades. That or don't use the forest. If you can't afford a pass, you can do a couple of days of volunteer work to pay for it. Quote
Alex Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 She got very mad and practically yelled to see my license again. She then told me I was “in direct violation of disobeying a federal officer” and turns to her sidekick and asks him if “did you go do what I told you to do?” As I didn’t know if this meant bear darts or black helicopters or both I got in my truck and drove. Level 4 Forest Service rangers (you'll know them because they are the ones that have a right to bear a service revolver) typically have a decent amount of training in law enforcement, have the right to arrest you, and I would fully expect them to interact with you "correctly" in this situation. That includes knowing how to react to an individual who questions authority. This individual you encountered might have had the authority to issue tickets (you dont have to be Level 4 to issue a ticket, but are not permitted to restrain or arrest people who do not accept your ticket) clearly didn't know how to (civilly) work with you on a subject that has alot of backcountry user's ire. While I don't think just driving away is ever the best solution, in this case I would have been very loathe to accept the ticket as well, and might just have done the same thing under the circumstances. Just remember that the rangers, whether backcountry rangers in North Cascades looking for backcountry permits or Forest Service rangers looking for the NW Forest Pass, are people too and trying to do the job that they are tasked with. Oftentimes they dont personally agree with the regulations they enforce, but they still are representatives of the government and agency that they work for. Its not a fun task, so if you can, cut them some slack. Quote
rbw1966 Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 When they stop subsidizing private corporate interests I will gladly support them. Until they do so I suggest you STFU. Quote
John Frieh Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 rbw1966: thanks! I'll have to figure something else out... Perhaps since Marylou feels it's all our civic duty to cover the compounding fiscal losses the FS continues to amass from selling public land for clear cutting she will buy a pass for me or pay my fines... And Marylou: while you are at it why don't you start sending money to local public schools... congress seems to be taking away there money too... Quote
snoboy Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I don't think that marylou uses the public school system, AFAIK... so Red Herring!!! Quote
John Frieh Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I accepted the ticket (I still have it) but draw the line there; I will not pay it. I was very cordial and respectful and I allowed her to do her job. Quote
iain Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Considering that Congress has basically eviscerated the FS's budget, I'd kindly suggest you whiners STFU and pay the money. ESPECIALLY this year after the weather event of last fall did so much road and trail damage all over the Cascades. That or don't use the forest. If you can't afford a pass, you can do a couple of days of volunteer work to pay for it. How would I know that the money I am giving them is going towards road and trail damage repairs and not to another shingled state-of-the-art bathroom that will not see restocking of toilet paper for 9/10's of the year? As far as I know, the money is sent to Washington D.C. We pay for our public lands through taxes. Fee-based recreation is the gateway to commercialization of access, in my opinion. Quote
Squid Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Steal Marylou's plates and put them on your truck while parked at trailheads Quote
rbw1966 Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 I used to hang a sign from my mirror saying I was having a religious experience in nature. Never got a ticket but that doesnt mean it worked. I have also parked at a number of trailheads with no pass or permit and not been ticketed. I got a warning notice one time at Santiam Pass. Quote
John Frieh Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 Fee-based recreation is the gateway to commercialization of access, in my opinion. Word. Squid: Good idea! Quote
iain Posted August 23, 2004 Posted August 23, 2004 If the TH is easy to access, people tend to get more tickets/warnings. In Oregon, expect to get something on the windshield at Santiam Pass every time. Quote
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