Laptop suggestions

[assmonkey]

Buy a typewriter.

[JoshK]

OK, first off, let me just say to discount whatever eternalX has said. To address a few of his points:

 

1.)You can remove the Sony apps you don't want. Reinstgall the OS, and using the recovery disks only insall what you want. Or you can just add/remove what you want.

 

2.)Many would consider the design better. Who are you to say that bland white is nicer than silver/black? It's a personal thing.

 

3.)If you think HD speed has nothing to do with performance you haven't a clue how any operating system using virtual memory works.

 

While most people look for HD capacity, a bigger factor, IMHO, is rotation speed. the common desktop speeds are 5400, 7200, and occasionally 10,000. Common notebook speed is 4,200, but thankfully 5400 and 7200 rpm notebook drives are gettin more commonplace now.

 

Any decent laptop should be available with 512mb ram, and that should suit your needs. Now, the issue with the HD hits when windows has to do something called "swapping" (shutup mac users: all OSs do this), where virtual memory is paged off the disk into physical memory. The whole point of having more RAM is to avoid paging as much as possible. Even with 1gig of RAM, however, you will have to page. The faster the harddisk, the quicker paging can be done. If eternalX wants to argue this, I invite him to come use my notebook (where I opened it up and replaced the HD with a 7200rpm, 16mb cache drive) with it's stock quivilent, and it's 4200rpm, 2mb cache drive. It feels like a completely different computer.

 

The difference is felt other times than simply paging of course. Loading a new program (or file) that is not yet in ram, such as word, excel, a large image, etc. will happen monumentally faster on a fast HD than a slow HD. Loading windows of course will happen much faster as well.

 

The DR has left the building...

[JoshK]

Oh, and on AMD, they make great desktop chips. The Athlon and Athlon 64 are right up there with the P4s. There weakness, hwoever, is in their mobile chips. For pure mobility, the PentiumM (aka centrino) is still the best choice.

[John Frieh]

Oh, and on AMD, they make great desktop chips. The Athlon and Athlon 64 are right up there with the P4s. There weakness, hwoever, is in their mobile chips. For pure mobility, the PentiumM (aka centrino) is still the best choice.

 

And since the whole point of getting a laptop is to be able to take it with you why wouldn't you go wireless? Especially since many businesses (and towns for that matter) are offering free wireless...

[willstrickland]

One factor you might consider in the Mac/PC debate:

 

Viruses and worms. Sometimes it pays to be in the minority.

[cracked]

In that case, go Unix.

[cj001f]

And since the whole point of getting a laptop is to be able to take it with you why wouldn't you go wireless? Especially since many businesses (and towns for that matter) are offering free wireless...

WiFi's really cool - if it works for you.

 

Right now there's no good nationwide network of Wifi providers. The Portland Airport doesn't have have Wifi The San Jose Airport uses Wayport, while the San Francisco Airport uses TMobile (which is widely available in Starbucks, etc). This situation is somewhat mirrored nationally. Some regional chains are now offering free Wifi with purchase of sandwich etc. So does Fast Eddy's in Moab.

 

So getting to the point, it does rock to just walk in plop down and spray on cc , but check to see if service is available, or coming, to where you want it.

[SnowByrd]

Ken - I'm a lifetime PC user and I use a DELL D800 for everything. As a developer and PM it's super fast, reliable, and has a huge screen. It also cost about 4k. Luckily work paid that.

 

Same story here....I'm a developer...I use a Dell D800 (Latitude series) with an 80 gig HD, running Advanced Server 2003, wireless card, gig of RAM, P4 - 3.2 ghz, blah blah. Its a $5000 machine and work paid for it. We're heavy on the .net and I work on a processor heavy client web app, which I need to constantly host and test on my laptop. Would I buy this machine for myself? Hell No!

 

Ken...do you have a Costco card?

[graupel]

Free WiFi may be more common than you think.

 

http://www.wififreespot.com/

 

Also places like King County public libraries have pretty high speed access.

[cj001f]

Free WiFi may be more common than you think.

 

Also places like King County public libraries have pretty high speed access.

There are currently a number of places that offer access, yes, but I'm looking for WiFi access places that I spend time already (like airports). If I have to go out of the way to get internet access I might as well go home.

[eternalX]

 

1.)You can remove the Sony apps you don't want. Reinstgall the OS, and using the recovery disks only insall what you want. Or you can just add/remove what you want.

 

2.)Many would consider the design better. Who are you to say that bland white is nicer than silver/black? It's a personal thing.

 

3.)If you think HD speed has nothing to do with performance you haven't a clue how any operating system using virtual memory works.

 

1) This is not true. In most cases from what I've seen you can't just reinstall the OS on Sony computers. They will not work because of all the proprietary crap in there. You have to install their version of the OS. And why oh why would you buy something with all this crap on it? I had a sony laptop and I didn't like it mainly for this reason. maybe it's gotten better, but Sony's aren't cheap either.

 

2)It's my personal opinion for sure, but the only one that i've seen come close is the new super thin one that's all black and still, it's not as attractive.

 

3)Yea i know how virtual memory works and i've built my fair share of computers (something that i won't do anymore) and my point is that you don't ever want to be using virtual memory. When you do you're going to get significant slowdown no matter if a drive is 20% faster or not (and in which case you sholud be looking more at seek times than throughput as normally your drive is jumping all over the place unless it's reading one continuous file...which is rare UNLESS you defrag alot AND you're working with large binaries LIKE uncompressed audio and video...none of which the average user does).

 

I mean..if you want the geek solution, go PC (but i'd still stay away from sony). If you want a laptop that you'll love and it'll work all the time and is geared for what it says you want to do, go iBook. It's form over function for sure, but you have to ask yourself, what do you want to do with it? talk about hard drive throughputs or listen to music, make movies, and view pictures?

[Gary_Yngve]

3.)If you think HD speed has nothing to do with performance you haven't a clue how any operating system using virtual memory works.

 

While most people look for HD capacity, a bigger factor, IMHO, is rotation speed. the common desktop speeds are 5400, 7200, and occasionally 10,000. Common notebook speed is 4,200, but thankfully 5400 and 7200 rpm notebook drives are gettin more commonplace now.

 

Josh, I need to call you on this one. Swapping (when you don't have enough RAM) is slow. At least 1000 times slower than using RAM. So a harddrive that's twice as fast is still going to swap really slowly. If you're worried about swapping, the real answer is to get more RAM. My laptop has 1G of RAM (I do development on it), and it is probably the most crucial piece of hardware in it (I could get by with lesser HD or CPU).

[jon]

macintosh G4 powerbook (or a new G4 ibook)

 

have you actually ever compared a powerbook to a PC equiv or do you just assume they are the best? Yes, their style is nice but they are seriously fucking overpriced. It isn't even like the iPod where their design is nice and the wheel thing is cool. You just get to pay more for the little apple logo. They also use suck ass HDs, which is the limiting factor in notebooks these days. Lots of the PC manufactures are now offering 5400 and 7200 rpm drives in notebooks now as options, thank god.

 

BTW, for what it's worth, if you are intersted in style, check out the new Sony S series. Widescreen 13" WXGA super-brite screens and great components. From your requirements it looks like you are looking for something cheaper and more utilitarian tho...

 

Nols posted a pic of the centrino stuff.that is the key. well, centrino is basically just marketing for built in wireless + pentium M, but the Pentium M is far and away the best mobile processor on the market today. Their battery life can't be beat.

 

On a random note...the super-brite screens (like in the sony I mention above) are fucking amazing. They are nite and day better than the standard laptop screens.

 

Let's dispel a few rumors here.

 

First Apple users aren't any more stupid than PC users. Loren you do tech support and you know this man. PC users are just as dumb. And it doesn't help that PCs have literally thousands of things that can go wrong with them. Why doesn't my video card work? Why is there no sound? Why isn't my internet work?

 

A common complain from a PC user is that Macs are confusing, and this is based off a their impression in 1995 running OS 8. Yes going from a MSDOS environment to a graphical environment, with this wierd mouse thing is strange. OS X is by far the coolest operating system I've ever used, and I've used a lot. It doesn't crash, it has great innovative features, and it's fun to use.

 

Seriously fucking overpriced. Yes they are. And there is a reason, because THEY SERIOUSLY FUCKING WORK! You can either buy a cheap laptop running windows and have it break and lose your hair and be weeks without it while it's being repaired, or dealing with missing DLLs. Or you can get a Powerbook and never have to deal with any of these problems. If time is important to you like it is me, I'd rather pay for something that works than something that I will spend hours trying to get to work.

 

I gave up a fast, dual monitor, w2k system at work to use my Powerbook instead. I can run all the same apps I need, my networking to our w2k works better than w2k machines, and I don't have to worry about intrusion because my employeer won't put in a firewall. In my group, every w2k machine has been hacked.

[eternalX]

Two other things...

 

1. If all you want is an iBook for pleasure, they really aren't that much. 1100 bucks?

 

2. There's an apple store here in seattle. If you have any problems or questions you can just stop in.

 

I want to point out that if you would've asked me this question 2-3 year ago, i never would've suggested a mac.

[CascadeClimber]

Most computer users are unaware, which is not dumb, nor is it surprising or unusual. Computers are complicated. Anyone who tells you that computers are easy to use, simple, and reliable is trying to sell you something.

 

Mac users are generally more difficult to help because they are often quick to jump on their soapbox and start defending all things Mac. Macs do break, even OSX. They also crash and deadlock. In an AD environment, they do not integrate as well or as easily as PCs running Xp or 2k. For example, there is no way to lock down a Mac with group policy, or to centrally manage patches.

 

I was a Mac fanatic for many years. I owned an SE and a Quadra 630, and used a IIci at work (I battled for 6 months to get a Mac rather than a PC). I used to dish out all manner of shit to people who had to fiddle with bat, sys, and ini files on their PCs. But now the Mac OS sits on *nix, which is chock full of text-based configuration files. Some are cloaked in a nice GUI, others aren't.

 

There are web sites that won't render properly using the browsers available for the Mac, or that require that you juggle multiple browsers. Office for the Mac will always be an afterthought for MS, depsite their assertions otherwise (where is Powerpoint for the Mac?). Macs have their place, but it isn't in the hands of newbies that need to easily interoperate with the rest of the world, or in an otherwise Windows-centric business environment where there is no compelling Mac-specific need, IMO.

 

But about laptops. Whatever you get, get a warranty, at least three years. I've seen more failed hard drives in the last eighteen months than in the previous ten years (all makes and models). Make backups of anything not easily replaced. CDs can work, but an external drive works better. You can find decent Dells on eBay. Latitudes are better than Inspirons, though a bit more expensive. If you buy used, better to choose one that has warranty coverage remaining. 5400 and 7200 RPM drives are faster, but they also run hotter and use more electricity, and generally have a shorter lifespan. Swap files suck, but they are necessary. More RAM helps, but doesn't eliminate them.

 

All LCD screen are not created equal. Laptop screens are usually designed for low power consumption, not color accuracy and/or brightness. I have a Dell D600 that I use with an external LCD when at my office. The external LCD blows the doors off the laptop display.

 

Batteries, even lithium ion, wear out. After 300 charge/discharge cycles you will notice a marked decrease in battery life. Batteries are not usually covered under warranties. If you are a heavy user (like me) plan to replace the battery every 12-18 months, if you want advertised run time.

 

OSX is, like most things Mac, very visually appealing.

 

-L

[JoshK]

All computer uses, mac or PC, are generally dumb, so I dont know what that argument is for.

 

My machine now has 1gb of RAM. You'll swap anyway, at least if are using the machine for RAM intensive applications. Loading and everything else is much faster with a good HD. PLain and simple this is why comparable laptops are sooo much slower than desktops. The HDs are vastly slower. All the components count towards performance and HD is the one that everybody forgets.

 

You are wrong about Sonys, external X. I have one (along with anotehr computer) and I wiped and reinstalled XP pro on it. Works fine. Then I installed just the few sony apps I wanted. You'll find the same suite of preinstalled crap on a dell, hp, compaq, etc. It's just what they do.

 

Sonys are more expensive than equivilent PCs, that is true. But sony was the only company that made the exact laptop I wanted: ~4lbs, super-bright screen, widescreen, and good performance. The toshiba lifebook comes close but it lacks widescreen and 1024x768 is too small for my likeing. The sony Z-series is pretty sweet but the S I got replaces it.

 

About displays...I would assume apple will come out with super-bright displays soon, as well as the majority of PC manufactuers. If you are interesting in the best diplay, wait until the model you want offers a super-bright. The comparison is night and day.

Edited August 4, 2004 by JoshK

[arlen]

In that case, go Unix.

 

Mac OSX is Unix in that regard.

 

Wireless isn't just about jacking free internet at Starbux. You can spray from the crapper, the backyard, the nitestand while

[cj001f]

Wireless isn't just about jacking free internet at Starbux. You can spray from the crapper, the backyard, the nitestand while

That stuff is great - but battery use isn't as important at home (for me at least) so the extra cost of a Centrino isn't worth it. On the road, or travelling, battery usage is a big deal.

[jon]

Mac users are generally more difficult to help because they are often quick to jump on their soapbox and start defending all things Mac. Macs do break, even OSX. They also crash and deadlock. In an AD environment, they do not integrate as well or as easily as PCs running Xp or 2k. For example, there is no way to lock down a Mac with group policy, or to centrally manage patches.

 

And you wonder why? Read what you wrote below. Completely rediculous. Why the hell should it? That's like saying "Dude those new La Sportiva Ice boots suck because they don't work with my Salomon downhill bindings." Yeah no shit. Can a windows machine plug directly into a network, discover all computers windows and mac, and be able to connect to them without changing ANY settings. The answer is a certifiable no. Regardless HARDLY any people have the need for this capability, connecting to AD that is. BTW when is windows going to install firewall software. And oh yeah Loren, Mac require a patch every couple months as opposed to twice a day.

 

I use Firefox and I can read any website correctly that isn't using that .net garbage.

[ken4ord]

Great stuff everybody, lots to think about.

 

 

Snowbyrd, what is up with the Costco Card question? Do they have cheap prices on laptops?

 

cj001f, Wifi, Wayport, TMobile, are wireless networks like like wireless phone, where you have to have a particular card to work with a particular network or do all wireless card work for all wireless networks?

 

CascadeClimber, what did you mean by OSX being visually appealing, looks good but not worth it? Is that what you meant?

 

Just to clarify why I want to get a laptop is because I will be travelling abroad. I am not sure what I will do for work, but some thought are is setting up a stock digital photo site, or try to sell to stock agencies. Another thought is to try and set up some sort of exporting business on the web. This will take place in Africa and I will be doing a fair amount of traveling around so the unit does need to be durable. I know will want a quality screen. Sounds like I will want to invest in extra batteries. So any more suggestion, ideas, opinions, whatever, are welcome. As for the PC vs Mac I could really careless why you think one is better than the other, I am familiar with both and operate either just fine, I just want to know what sets it aside from other unit Mac or PC.

[cracked]

[iain]

You get an iBook or PowerBook with OS X and you will have zero problems. You will enjoy it, I guarantee. You will love iPhoto, and all the other applications you can only run on a Mac. You will feel that every penny was worth it. Comparing Macs today to those before is pointless, as they are not the same computer at all. Life is too short to put up with crap software from Microsoft.

[JoshK]

[And you wonder why? Read what you wrote below. Completely rediculous. Why the hell should it? That's like saying "Dude those new La Sportiva Ice boots suck because they don't work with my Salomon downhill bindings." Yeah no shit. Can a windows machine plug directly into a network, discover all computers windows and mac, and be able to connect to them without changing ANY settings. The answer is a certifiable no.

 

Umm, both of the last two times I have set up a computer it just attaches to the network and finds all the computers. Maybe I have a supar special #1 Windows computer?

 

Yes, I do admit the patching sucks, I guess as will said above, it's nice having a OS that nobody uses and thus isn't targeted by hackers. In their defense the MS auto-update patching shit works pretty seamlessly.

[Bronco]

all you win98se belong to me

[murraysovereign]

Wireless isn't just about jacking free internet at Starbux. You can spray from the crapper, the backyard, the nitestand while

...or from your favourite Squamish gearshop/hotspot

 

Imagine, spraying about your new gear as you're buying it !!

 

Oh, Brave New World

 

 

 

Oh, and as for the original topic - I've got a Compaq Presario 700 (Athlon 4 processor) that has worked well for me for 1 1/2 years now, with no serious problems. I even managed to drop it off the roof of the truck one night while loading a bunch of gear into the cab, so about a 5' drop onto concrete. The force of the impact jarred the hard drive loose, so it wouldn't boot up first time I tried (that was a pretty sick feeling, let me tell you...). But after figuring out the problem and re-seating the drive, it fired right up and has been running just fine ever since. My only complaint is that the screen is hard to read when using it outdoors in even moderately bright sunlight.

Oh, and the built-in speakers have no bottom end at all, so you don't quite get that "concert hall" feeling.