sailBOI Posted July 21, 2004 Posted July 21, 2004 I have been seeing lots of condemnation of the Patriot Act, and blame is focussed on Ashcroft and Bush. I have previously posted that there was wide bipartisan support for these measures when this was enacted. In the event that you are of the opinion that we need to abolish the Patriot Act, you really owe it to yourself and all of us to take the time to read this shocking account : TERROR IN THE SKY TERROR IN THE SKY 2 How many will become the next victims of Political Correctness ? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted July 21, 2004 Posted July 21, 2004 Hopefully fewer than will become victims of shitty spelling. For the record, it's spelled S-K-I-E-S. Enjoy your totalitarian monocultural shopping mall lockdown existence! Sorry, threat level is red again today. Please stay indoors with your blinds closed! Quote
foraker Posted July 21, 2004 Posted July 21, 2004 Bi-partisan support does not mean it was the right thing to do. If everyone agreed to steal your car, would that mean it was right? If the Republicans voted with the Democrats to suspend what little remains of your civil liberties, would you lie back and say "Oh, well, at least it had bipartisan support"? Quote
sailBOI Posted July 21, 2004 Author Posted July 21, 2004 Bi-partisan support does not mean it was the right thing to do. If everyone agreed to steal your car, would that mean it was right? If the Republicans voted with the Democrats to suspend what little remains of your civil liberties, would you lie back and say "Oh, well, at least it had bipartisan support"? I would agree with that, we should always be cautious, but I saw the other day that Sen. Dianne Feinstein said she has not heard reports of abuse of the Patriot Act.....did you read these lengthy articles I linked above? Quote
Alpinfox Posted July 21, 2004 Posted July 21, 2004 Sen. Dianne Feinstein said she has not heard reports of abuse of the Patriot Act From the ACLU website: "without a warrant and without probable cause, the FBI now has the power to access your most private medical records, your library records, and your student records... and can prevent anyone from telling you it was done." Perhaps the Patriot Act has been used (abused) and no one knows about it? I don't think it's OK for Intelligence agencies to have this kind of power. I like my rights. I like my privacy. I think the government had the power to investigate and prosecute organized crime/"terrorism" before this legislation was passed and I think it only passed because of the climate of fear and knee-jerk protectionist "Patriotism" following 911. Quote
Stonehead Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 Grassroots opposition to the USA Patriot Act State of Alaska Anchorage Bethel Fairbanks Gustavus Homer Juneau Kenai North Pole Skagway Sitka Soldotna Arizona Bisbee Flagstaff Jerome Pima County Tucson California Albany Arcata Berkeley Claremont Contra Costa County Cotati Davis Duarte Dublin EI Cerrito Emeryville Fairfax Hayward Lake County Livermore Los Angeles Los Gatos Marin County Mendocino County Mill Valley Mountain View Oakland Pacific Grove Palo Alto Pinole Pleasanton Point Arena Porterville Richmond Sacramento Salinas San Anselmo San Francisco San Jose San Rafael San Ramon Santa Barbara Santa Clara Santa Cruz County Santa Cruz Santa Monica Saratoga Sausalito Sebastopol Soledad Sonoma South Pasadena Tehama County Ukiah Union City Watsonville West Hollywood Yolo County Colorado Boulder Crestone Denver Durango Fort Collins Ridgway San Miguel County Telluride Ward Connecticut Bethany Hartford Mansfield New Haven Delaware Arden Newark Wilmington Florida Alachua County Broward County Sarasota Georgia Atlanta State of Hawaii Honolulu Idaho Boise Idaho County Illinois Carbondale Chicago Evanston Glencoe Oak Park Indiana Bloomington Maine Waterville Maryland Baltimore Greenbelt Montgomery Cty Prince George's County Takoma Park Massachusetts Amherst Arlington Ashfield Brewster Brookline Greenburgh Ithaca Town of New Paltz Village of New Paltz New York North Hempstead Nyack Rosendale Schenectady Schuyler County St. Lawrence Cty Syracuse Urbana Woodstock North Carolina Carrboro Chapel Hill Davidson Durham County Durham Greensboro Orange County Ohio Cleveland Heights Oberlin Oxford Toledo Yellow Springs Oregon Ashland Astoria Benton County Corvallis Douglas County Eugene Gaston Lane County Portland Port Orford Talent Pennsylvania Lansdowne Philadelphia Reading Wilkinsburg York Rhode Island Charlestown Middletown New Shoreham North Providence Providence South Kingstown Tennessee Blount County Texas Austin Sunset Valley Utah Castle Valley State of Vermont Athens Brattleboro Burlington Dummerston Guilford Jamaica Marlboro Montpelier Newfane Putney Rockingham Warren Westminster Waitsfield Windham Virginia Alexandria Charlottesville Washington Bainbridge Island Bellingham Clallam County Jefferson County King County Olympia Oroville Port Townsend Riverside San Juan County Seattle Snoqualmie Tacoma Tonasket Twisp Vashon-Maury Island West Virginia Huntington Wisconsin Douglas County Madison Wyoming Fremont County Quote
toptimmy Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 I have been seeing lots of condemnation of the Patriot Act, and blame is focussed on Ashcroft and Bush. I have previously posted that there was wide bipartisan support for these measures when this was enacted. In the event that you are of the opinion that we need to abolish the Patriot Act, you really owe it to yourself and all of us to take the time to read this shocking account : TERROR IN THE SKY TERROR IN THE SKY 2 How many will become the next victims of Political Correctness ? Go die you little troll.They want to take away my freedom and you defend it?If I ever meet you I have A urine sample Id like you to analize. Quote
cj001f Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 I would agree with that, we should always be cautious, but I saw the other day that Sen. Dianne Feinstein said she has not heard reports of abuse of the Patriot Act.....did you read these lengthy articles I linked above? Feinstein said her office has never received a complaint of Patriot Act abuse. Documentable and verifiable. As for your terror in the sky crap - you wear a white sheet on the weekends? Quote
Stonehead Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 Brandon Mayfield, Portland area lawyer detained, then released Seattle photography student harrassed. (click on B&W photo at link) FBI harrassment continues, artist faces 20 year charges Feds Seek Anthrax Suit Dismissal, suit filed by Dr. Steven J. Hatfill a bioterrorism expert, accused of anthrax letters There's probably more out there. What was it that Benjamin Franklin said? "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." "The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home." -- James Madison "It is the first responsibliity of every citizen to question authority." -- Benjamin Franklin "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States (1901-1909), speaking in 1918 Quote
Ratboy Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 What was it that Benjamin Franklin said? "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." "The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home." -- James Madison "It is the first responsibliity of every citizen to question authority." -- Benjamin Franklin "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States (1901-1909), speaking in 1918 Quote
mtn_mouse Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 sailor dude, how can you generalize against all democrats by saying some oppose the patriot act? Out here in Idaho, I deal with right wing crazys like you on a daily basis (unless I visit Moscow). Its Republicans that oppose the patriot act here, like senator Craig, Butch Otter (a nnodder), Gov Kempthorne, and your buddy Randy Weaver. They all oppose it because of our loss of freedoms. Do you really think we need the patriot act, or is it possible we already had the laws needed to keep our country safe, and it was in effect just incompetence by our gov. agencies? And do you feel safer with Tom Ridge sitting behind a shiny new desk in DC??? Quote
sailBOI Posted July 22, 2004 Author Posted July 22, 2004 sailor dude, how can you generalize against all democrats by saying some oppose the patriot act? Out here in Idaho, I deal with right wing crazys like you on a daily basis (unless I visit Moscow). Its Republicans that oppose the patriot act here, like senator Craig, Butch Otter (a nnodder), Gov Kempthorne, and your buddy Randy Weaver. They all oppose it because of our loss of freedoms. Do you really think we need the patriot act, or is it possible we already had the laws needed to keep our country safe, and it was in effect just incompetence by our gov. agencies? And do you feel safer with Tom Ridge sitting behind a shiny new desk in DC??? I don't think I have said anything about Democrats, but if you want to talk Democrats.....Kerry supported the Patriot Act, voted for it and now want parts of it strengthened. Islamic radicals are using Western civil liberties as a weapon, here and in Europe. Do I like the Patriot Act, NO !!!! Do I think it necessary, YES , unfortunately. Where do you get off branding me a Right Wing loonie, when I post a story from the WSJ ?? There is entirely too much personal affront going on in this forum to allow a balanced debate.... Quote
catbirdseat Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 The Patriot Act was pushed through in a hurry while the public was still in a panic about 9-11. To oppose it would have been political suicide. It was a case of "we need to do something, NOW!". Now that we have calmed down a little it is time to reexamine the provisions of the Act. I believe that some provisions should be repealed and others preserved. I don't think anyone is advocating a wholesale repeal of the entire act. Quote
cj001f Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 Where do you get off branding me a Right Wing loonie, when I post a story from the WSJ ?? Your enough of loon to not realize the WSJ is by far the most right of any major newspaper..... Quote
sailBOI Posted July 22, 2004 Author Posted July 22, 2004 Where do you get off branding me a Right Wing loonie, when I post a story from the WSJ ?? Your enough of loon to not realize the WSJ is by far the most right of any major newspaper..... OK, business is right wing, NY Times is neutral, right? But why are you branding me, what does that have to do with the debate at hand ?? I am actually a Libertarian, and believe in minimal government, so did our founding fathers. It is a little known fact however, that these gentleman founded the US Navy in order to deal with Islamic insurgents, the Barbary Pirates : USA deals with Islamics in the early days Quote
JayB Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 I find it amusing that the same crew who passionately advocate on behalf of hate crime laws are up in arms about the Patriot Act. When the government adds an additional penalty for the beliefs that motivated a violent act rather than administering the same punishment for the same acts of violence irrespective of the motivation for the said acts, the government has effectively determined which beliefs are acceptable and which are not. Quote
markinore Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 Sailboi makes a good point about Democrats supporting the Patriot Act. The Dems—including Kerry and Edwards—were cravenly afraid to stand up against the paranoid infringement on civil liberties (such as the ability to search library records) that the Patriot Act represents. This is not to say that all aspects of the Patriot Act are evil. Certainly, the provisions that allow greater sharing of information among intelligence services are unexceptionable. However, there were no legal obstacles to that sharing before, only some bureaucratic customs. The episode regarding the plane flight, on the other hand, is a bizarre example of how some people’s paranoia can run rampant. To summarize: 1) Some individuals of Middle Eastern extraction got on an airplane. 2) Their behavior was odd, although not threatening or hostile. 3) The plane landed without incident. What should have been done? Should those passengers have been taken off the plane? Should they have been arrested after the plane landed? If they are foreign nationals, should they be deported? Sent to Guantanamo? Abu Ghraib? It was speculated that those passengers may have been rehearsing for a 9/11-type hijacking. Really? How would you know? Do you think that just maybe, any Al Qaeda operatives would be smart enough not to try the same exact thing twice? Do you think that after 9/11, any plane full of passengers and crew would respond a little bit differently than before 9/11? If you want to defend the Patriot Act, defend it on its merits, rather than by citing the fevered product of somebody’s imagination. Quote
rbw1966 Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 Where do you get off branding me a Right Wing loonie, when I post a story from the WSJ ?? You need to read the links you posted again boi. You didn't cite the WSJ. Quote
ian Posted July 22, 2004 Posted July 22, 2004 "I am actually a Libertarian" SB...head over to www.antiwar.com for some Libertarian guidance.... Quote
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