TBay Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 (Re-post) Ethics Question If an athlete is caught using performance enhancing drugs they are stripped of accomplishments, titles, etc. Then should the "First Ascenionist" status be stripped from those who admit using "mind altering drugs" during a first ascent (specifically Yosemite Big Wall Routes)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Pine Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Athletes are stipped of their medals for doping because the other athletes would rather not be forced to engage in a dangerous behavior in order to compete. In cutting-edge wall climbing it seems as if doing dangerous stuff is the norm, or at least nobody starts yelling "cheating" when a climber cuts some corners, does a cool route, but is just lucky he didn't die. Doing some drugs while operating seems pretty tame compared to some of the risks many of these climbers take. So no. Can't take away their FA's . Of course, this could be a way to justify retrobolting. "That guy was way too dangerous when he put this up. There should be three more bolts there. Thus, the FA is invalid. So I, with the three new bolts I added am the true FA'er, and am allowed to bolt it retroactively how I want." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assmonkey Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I think when you see the level of corporate sponsorship for climbing that you see now for the, say, Tour de France, that's when you will see stringent rules for drug use in climbing. Of course, this is a pastime in which many consider wikked BC bud to be a "performance enhancer." (I prefer Gu myself.) There's a related thread somewhere about a recent alpine route named for the sponsor (a telecom firm?) but I can't find it right now. - a s s m * n k e y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBay Posted July 1, 2004 Author Share Posted July 1, 2004 The reason for why I bring this up is that an aquaintance, who has a handful hard aid FA's in the Ditch and Zion, mentioned that sometimes the intensity and risk involved for him was so great that he would eat some "mind candy". Avoiding the sobering reality of scaling vertical rock And why bother climbing ("loaded" or "enhanced") if big coporate sponsors dont exist for the sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 the difference is that most sports have a governing body and rules against using performance enhancing drugs. in climbing, thankfully, that is not the case. when we start regulating first ascents, i think the activity of climbing loses something special. more importantly...who cares how they did it? they did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 There is a funny story about the late Walt Shipley and Russ "Fish" Walling trying for the 2nd ascent of Born Under a Bad Sign on El Cap. This route was stupid hard, and had sent a few big wall studs away with their tails between their legs. Walt had been up on it once with Paul Gagner in '84 and they bailed. He and Russ tried it once in '85 and bailed. The third time in '86 was the charm, but when they got ready to blast off after fixing to Cats and Frogs ledge, Russ noticed something wasn't quite right. I'll let them tell the story (reproduced from the TR on Fish's site): WALT: "As before, we fixed the four pitches up to "Cats and Frogs Ledge". Ready to "Blast", we got a ride down to El Cap with intentions of hauling the bags and bivying atop the "Devil's Tower" once again. Russ was to go first while I organized the loads for the mondo haul. The 3 ropes we had tied together hung away from the wall at the base. Russ sorted out his tangle of daisies and began taking the stretch out of the fixed lines. He was only a few feet off the ground when I realized the futility of the situation......I had eaten L.S.D. earlier in the day and the prospect of organizing the haul was overwhelming me. I had to confess my altered state. "Why didn't you just say so, Bip" he quipped It was becoming obvious that we had failed to allocate enough time for our mission. It was back to the bar at Yosemite Lodge to party some more! Down the Zodiac talus we went and out onto the road, hoping to hitch a ride back home. Russ said, "Ah, we'll get picked up by some bleeding heart liberal in a V.W.!" He was right. I asked the driver of the V.W. bus that gave us a ride what his politic was...a damned liberal!" RUSS: "Now this was funny! I could tell something was up when Walt was packing the bags in a slow and strange way. He had packed bags dozens of times before, but never like this. I just thought he was nervous. I was hanging there about 5 feet off the ground when he told me..... I confess that I was relieved to get off those lines and have one more day of life. Within minutes we were outta there" Performance enhancer? You tell me. I have found that a dugout can come in might handy on the rack in the middle of a sketchy aid pitch. But I dunno know about that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBay Posted July 1, 2004 Author Share Posted July 1, 2004 I agree that the diff between organized sports and climbing is that climbing is self governed with "unenforced" ethics and rules and honesty in honoring them. ...i think the activity of climbing loses something special. What if some aussie doesnt like the idea of a japanese dude sending the world's hardest boulder problem on his terf and decides to gets in touch with BALCO pharmecuticals, juices up, and then fires that shit forward and backwards, then fires something harder, and no purist and keep up? then lets say, a coupla years go by, rad aussie climber fesses up about the use? what then, has climbing lost something special? Do his accomplishments stand and continually glorfied? more importantly...who cares how they did it? they did it. In general, style is everything, there's good and there's bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 TBay i agree w/much of what you're saying but i still feel that climbing is and should be an individual thing. i think that rules and governing of it make it less. i don't like bouldering competitions, i don't like scoring (8nau), i think it diminishes so much of climbing. i think it's up to the climber to maintain their own ethics. we're talking about first ascents as documented accomplishments in a loosely organized activity. many of these are inaccurate at best and those that are shouldn't diminish the satisfaction of those that follow. find your own line climb it in style, whatever yours is. those that follow can climb it in theirs. if it's all about recognition maybe you should take up an orgnized sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 according to stevie haston, all the mixed climbers who climb harder than him do so because of drug use. i guess he considers red bull a drug and french wine not a drug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I don't think many have claimed that hallucinogens are performance enhancing, it's more like getting points for working with a handicap, like a no-hands ascent of a boulder problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 The style of the first ascent should be documented so that parties repeating the route can do so in the true style of the original ascent (if they so choose). It would also be beneficial to know if particular pitches were led by the tripper, the stoner, or the drunk so that repeating parties can medicate themselves accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBay Posted July 1, 2004 Author Share Posted July 1, 2004 Who here would trust jugging on a line fixed by a tripper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 the deuce (middendorff) attributed part of his and xaver bongard's survival and success on great trango, to a training regime which included free soloing 5.11s while tripping on acid the theory was that by freesoloing while hallucinating in the "safe" environment of Yosemite Valley, it would prepare them for hallucinations and general distorted mindset of being heavily fatigued and strung out by a gnarly big wall climb at 6000m+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrutch Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I would. You should always know your partners and their abilites in any given moement. Truthfully I would put my degerate friends up against anyone in any situation. Atleast I would know their actions and understand their guiding principles. In climbing the bond between the partners is key for true success, cause who would want to do something cool with someone whom they hate? If druggies find their place doing hard aid or public law and they do well, then let them be. We all have our vices and handicapps. I think the important thing about it all is one should first worry about their own shortcomings before attempting to debunk others and if someone cannot undersand that concept, then I think they would be the liability in any action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrutch Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 And in response to your query about prefessionals being attacked for their "allegeded" use of enhancing drugs, they are professionals they know and understand the game they play. Like climbers or anyone who's time comes to pay the piper they best be ready to stand behind all their actions cause in the end that is all anyone ever has is their actions. words mean nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Who here would trust jugging on a line fixed by a tripper? I imagine there was probable some jugging involved on the FA's of Tangerine Trip, Magic Mushroom, Peyote Dreams, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I'm totally tweaked on coffee, Irish Cream, and Cymbalta! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmatt Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I imagine there was probable some jugging involved on the FA's of Tangerine Trip, Magic Mushroom, Peyote Dreams, etc. etc. What happened on Wyoming Sheep Ranch then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Slater was from Wyoming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I don't think many have claimed that hallucinogens are performance enhancing, it's more like getting points for working with a handicap, like a no-hands ascent of a boulder problem. I would very much beg to differ, though technically I don't consider hallucinogens "performance enhancing" so much as they simply tend to make you less prone to jumping off the rock. I say that because I don't believe almost all climbers "fall" off routes - they jump off of them 99.9% of the time. I think few climbers will ever climb at their true physical limit or at best will climb at that limit a couple of times in a lifetime of climbing. The rest of time we're all "jumping" off climbs at our emotional limit. Few, if any, climbers are willing to admit such a thing as everyone wants to believe they aren't "giving up" so much as reaching their physical limit. I fervently believe that is the [unfortunate] truth, though. That short of a select few folks who break through, or in circumstances where death is eminent, few climbers ever experience climbing at their physical limit. Hallucinogens tend to dampen that effect and allow you to push through that emotional barrier and play at or at least nearer your physical limit. I put up two hard FA's in the '70s that repulsed extremely determined and sustained efforts on our part only to succeed on the first attempt on each after dropping specifically for the routes. The result was 'The Electric Koolaid Acid Test' and 'Leaves of the Failing Faith'. Neither would have happened for decades or at all by any other path... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Climb High wasn't an accident either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 This thread reminds me of the story of Chris Chandler dropping on a high carry on Everest. Or was it K2? I forget. Anyway, quite a story ... although his life story certainly didn't have a happy ending. In any event, its a good read but I forget what book its in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Anyone actually get to see the "Shipley show"? I did once, that man was funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strumpett Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 they jump off of them 99.9% of the time. I think few climbers will ever climb at their true physical limit or at best will climb at that limit a couple of times in a lifetime of climbing. The rest of time we're all "jumping" off climbs at our emotional limit. Few, if any, climbers are willing to admit such a thing as everyone wants to believe they aren't "giving up" so much as reaching their physical limit. I fervently believe that is the [unfortunate] truth, though. That short of a select few folks who break through, or in circumstances where death is eminent, few climbers ever experience climbing at their physical limit. Hallucinogens tend to dampen that effect and allow you to push through that emotional barrier and play at or at least nearer your physical limit. I put up two hard FA's in the '70s that repulsed extremely determined and sustained efforts on our part only to succeed on the first attempt on each after dropping specifically for the routes. The result was 'The Electric Koolaid Acid Test' and 'Leaves of the Failing Faith'. Neither would have happened for decades or at all by any other path... Hard man in the house!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strumpett Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 (edited) I put up two hard FA's in the '70s that repulsed extremely determined and sustained efforts on our part only to succeed on the first attempt on each after dropping specifically for the routes. The result was 'The Electric Koolaid Acid Test' and 'Leaves of the Failing Faith'. Neither would have happened for decades or at all by any other path... You make it sound like NOBODY else was going to come along and do the route sober. Sounds like a little ego coming out of the acid trip. Edited November 18, 2006 by strumpett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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