ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Just to clarify, I personally I wouldn't consider it "downclimbing" to move from the crux hold, back to the next hold down. That's just probing the crux. I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off. I guess if you're climbing something that's 5.7 except for a single 5.hard crux, downclimbing helps. But then we're talking more about a roped boulder problem than an actual route. Quote
michaelt Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 just take a bong hit and relax. with your level of skill it's really just a mental thing. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 just take a bong hit and relax. with your level of skill it's really just a mental thing. Â Thanks for repeating so eloquently what I've been saying the whole time! Quote
Matt_Anderson Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off. Â Sounds like he needs more practice downclimbing . . . Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off. Â Sounds like he needs more practice downclimbing . . . Â You show me downclimbing on Smith face and I'll show somebody wasting their time on climbs that are too easy... Quote
Distel32 Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off. Â Sounds like he needs more practice downclimbing . . . Â You show me downclimbing on Smith face and I'll show somebody wasting their time on climbs that are too easy... Â this is just retarded, stop before somebody kicks your ass Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off.  Sounds like he needs more practice downclimbing . . .  You show me downclimbing on Smith face and I'll show somebody wasting their time on climbs that are too easy...  this is just retarded, stop before somebody kicks your ass  Oh whatever man you know I'm right, this is just turning into mob mentality now. And that's retarded. You want this BS to end, then stop talking shit. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Anyway I'm not claiming to be mister onsight or even a particularly strong climber so if my opinion bothers any of you, then you can rest comfortably with the notion that you can probably out-climb me. Â Hey, have you ever thought that you might get better if you learned how to down-climb? Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Anyway I'm not claiming to be mister onsight or even a particularly strong climber so if my opinion bothers any of you, then you can rest comfortably with the notion that you can probably out-climb me. Â Hey, have you ever thought that you might get better if you learned how to down-climb? Â Yeah, sometime two years ago. What makes you think that I am incapable of downclimbing? I wouldn't be bagging on downclimbing as an onsighting strategy if I didn't know how to do it. I am not that lame. Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you wanted me to get all pissed off instead so people can keep ripping on me? Â Folks I am not saying that you suck of you downclimb. I don't think downclimbing is stupid. I recognize its usefulness in appropriate situations. I'm just of the mentality that if you want to send something first try, stop wasting time and just bust it out. Maybe I'm mistaken but I think this is actually a pretty widespread sentiment in the realm of climbing. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Hey you're right. I was trying to push your buttons, but just a little, in a purely friendly way! Â Your idea of busting shit out and just going for it is totally valid, but I've found that preparing properly for this is important too, and sometimes downclimbing is important in setting up to do this, ie., hard to read crux approaching: enter how I thought it would go, but realize it ain't going; downclimb to stance; scope some more, visualize, then try again; hmmm still not it; downclimb again to stance, scope some more, etc etc. It takes patience and certainly fitness to do this, but some onsights ain't going down unless I show some patience. Â But it's all relative to the situation. There's no set answer. You don't always have the option of downclimbing. If I just busted some eight move V6 section to a shitty edge after having climbed sustained crimpy V3 moves and now I've got the actual crux of the climb smiling at me oh so lovingly, it's go time and there ain't no down-climbing for me. I go as I am, and either make it or fall. But realize someone else COULD downclimb and maybe find a stance; it's all relative to one's ability. I think the only reason you got shit for your position is that you presented your opinion as some sort of hard-and-fast rule, not taking into account all the variances of onsight climbing. Quote
eternalX Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I think the downclimbing thing is bad advice. Â Yeah, If you climb up to the crux and find that you're out of position or you need to switch your hands, just DYNO dude! Whatever you do, don't downclimb and reposition yourself. That's a sign of FEAR!!! Â Â Â Thanks, Pax. I was trying to hold my back at dis foo. Â d00d. You connected Pax to AlpinFox. A year ago that would've gotten you sent to AlpinPrison. Quote
Matt_Anderson Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004  Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  I would consider it downclimbing to move both feet to lower positions. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible. Someone already mentioned Smith. Most of the face climbing I have done there was just moving from one set of miniscule holds to the next. Downclimbing just puts you onto the next lowest miniscule holds, and really no better off.   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------    Sounds like he needs more practice downclimbing . . .   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------    You show me downclimbing on Smith face and I'll show somebody wasting their time on climbs that are too easy...  Err . . . I downclimb at Smith. Alot. Matter o' fact, one of my best onsights was at Smith and involved prodigious amounts of downclimbing. It really isn’t harder to downclimb a climb of a given grade at smith than anywhere else. Matter ‘o fact, for me it’s a whole lot easier doing so at Smith than at other, steeper venues.  Mebbe I don't try hard enough climbs to onsight, but I doubt it. My best onsights are three letter grades off my single best redpoint, a climb I worked on tried two or three days a week for weeks at a place with significantly softer ratings than Smith. On the vast majority of sport climbs I've been on, the latter has never proven useful, or even possible.  Huh? Reversing a move is reversing a move, regardless of whether your hand is crimping or in a jam, or if the protection is a bolt or a cam. What makes you think that I am incapable of downclimbing?  What you said above about downclimbing at smith . . . I wouldn't be bagging on downclimbing as an onsighting strategy if I didn't know how to do it. I am not that lame.  You might be . . .  Originally, my comment was just a joke, but, seriously, it sounds like your climbing might just improve with some downclimbing practice. Quote
texplorer Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Downclimbing only works if you can recover from the lower holds. If you cannot then your better off blasting through. Â I usually onsight very close to my lead level. I think alot of it is a natural talent to solve problems but anyone (including myself) can benefit from the mental imagery already described by DFA and others. An additional technique I use for onsighting trad is to estimate where and what size gear to use and where. I often clip longer runner to gear before starting a climb if necessary. That way I can fire gear faster and also know how far I should go before placing another piece. Quote
lummox Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 i downclimbed robbins crack at mt woodson a few days ago. it was the easiest way down outside of jumping. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Is there anyone who feels down-climbing to be perhaps the most important aspect of onsight climbing? Â If one is able to down-climb any route they are able to up-climb, then I think their chances of onsight are better. Â And onsighting a down-climb might be kinda cool too. Â It seems a bit arbitrary that we, as a climbing community, are always obsessing about going UP. I think this has more to do with our collective value-systems, and taxonomy and shit like that. And maybe heaven and stuff too. Plato. Hierarchy of Ideals and Linnaeus. Quote
lancegranite Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I think this thread now has a better name. Quote
Dane Posted June 3, 2004 Posted June 3, 2004 Not everything is bolted. Not everything is something you want to wing off of. Down climbing is never going to be a bad thing, might even save your ass from a nasty fall. Â If you want to onsight at your ability, down climbing just below your ability is going to come in real handy. Â If you can't climb down you are playing only half the game. Quote
Distel32 Posted June 3, 2004 Posted June 3, 2004 find the Steven Jeffery video from the old front gym, drops from the rafters to the second lowest campus rung, something like 12feet. Quote
texplorer Posted June 3, 2004 Posted June 3, 2004 Maybe downclimbing is will replace the moondance? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted June 4, 2004 Posted June 4, 2004 Is there anyone who feels down-climbing to be perhaps the most important aspect of onsight climbing? Â Hopefully not. Like climbing in general, there is no magic bullet solution to excelling at it, save for being named Sharma. Â Like all the other ideas discussed in this thread, it's just one element of a complicated little game. Â Noteworthy: Yuji Hirayama's onsight of Mortal Kombat several years back took 45 minutes (!!!) and involved copious downclimbing and reassessing. Obviously right there you've got downclimbing and a frightful shitheap of stamina working in tight harmony. Â Branch out, hone a wide variety of skills and approaches, and destroy. Quote
chucK Posted June 4, 2004 Posted June 4, 2004 Do you guys still consider it an onsight if you downclimb to a no-hands rest (e.g. the ground) and rest? Â I do. Quote
fern Posted June 4, 2004 Posted June 4, 2004 Â we had this debate already. the smart people said yes-still-an-onsight and the dumb people said no-ground-is-off-limits. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted June 4, 2004 Posted June 4, 2004 Is there anyone who feels down-climbing to be perhaps the most important aspect of onsight climbing?  Hopefully not. Like climbing in general, there is no magic bullet solution to excelling at it  Hope all you want; it still won't change the facts.  I believe down-climbing might just be the magic bullet for onsight climbing, as evidenced by your yuji hirayama anecdote. I don't think yuji would be down-climbing just to put on a circus-show, do you?  I wonder if he'd be able to down-climb Mortal Kombat? First anchor to ground reverse red-point. Now that'd be something, eh? Quote
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