New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

[RayBonbon]

17 years should be a long time, even for you thunder lizard.

[Dennis_Harmon]

Retro, You should, and did, apologize to Allison. Differing opinions and the willingness to understand that many people out there are blatantly stupid is all that separates us from rabid beasts, which is what you are. Thanks for the back-up on the bolting question though. Frankly, I don't think anythings going to help, short of U.N. troops liberating drills from Gen-X morons in the middle of the night. Dennis

[sk]

Do you have any proof that thease wrong things are being done only by gen xers? I realy want to know.

[crazyjizzy]

Dennis isn't so bad! He is just stating his opinion as a climber.

Allison sucks! And she is just a poseur anyway! She couldn't climb a 5.5 without a ladder anyway.

 

[ 06-16-2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: crazyjz ]

[Szyjakowski]

quote:

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Originally posted by sk:

Do you have any proof that thease wrong things are being done only by gen xers? I realy want to know.

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the bolting of cracks is being done by not only so-called genxers...sportos with gaspowered drills and visions of how many bolts they can put on a climb are guilty. Likewise old schoolers (with a loss of adventure I guess) are continually placing bolts near cracks and gear placements in a quest for making new routes in order to speed up the need for new editions of guidebooks....it really is a sin I say. Especially since there truly is a plethora of rocks in the icicle (and don't forget the tumwater) just crying to be climbed but only need bolts and a quick brushing to remove all the kittyliter-like granite. The only downfall is they are at least an hour above the road...yet in other parts of the world hour and even two hour approaches to sport crags is common. I suppose leavenworth's steep and long (60-200') granite faces really aren't worth it. But remember that doesn't mean bolting cracks near the road is worth it....please all you drill mongrels keep your bolts away from the cracks and learn or relearn how to place cams and nuts.

[sk]

that's what I thought. Thank you

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by richard noggin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

I climbed Beckey's 5.7 pitch last weekend. I clipped his rusty ole bolt.

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So Beckey's a sport climber

And did he place the old 1\4 inch bolts on classic crack?

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Fred clips bolts so what...? I don't know about classic crack. Why don't you ask him?

[Crackbolter]

Good morning! Nice to see a new ethics thread that reviews the importance of weither our bolters are doing a good job. I am sorry I was skiing Helens on Friday rather than being on this website debating. Ready for my opinion?

 

Go Fishing, and use dry flies only.

[Bug]

I got a crowbar for father's day. I'm going to Leavenworth this weekend. Anyone have a hit list?

[Peter_Puget]

OK Can’t resist this topic after all. Must be Monday I don’t want to work time!

 

Basically – I agree bolted cracks are a NO! NO!

 

Quotes and comments follow:

 

Quote from SZY –

“Likewise old schoolers (with a loss of adventure I guess) are continually placing bolts near cracks and gear placements in a quest for making new routes in order to speed up the need for new editions of guidebooks…”

 

Am I correct in concluding that this is a indirect way of saying that Viktor is a crack bolter. If so, have you discussed this issue with him. What was his response? If not why slam him publicly without first giving him the courtesy of a direct discussion?

 

Quote from Retro-

“I think that public humiliation may be the solution. If anyone claims these prizes they can be blacklisted and have feces flung at them when they are sighted at the crags”

 

Hasn’t kept you from posting.

 

Quote from Haireball -

“new-age sport-route = bolt ladder = why bother?”

 

Certainly you must not be serious or your experience with sport routes is quite limited. Go try Roothless (sp?) on the Drip wall and tell me it’s the same as climbing a bolt ladder.

 

Quote from - dberdinka

“While I did not climb any of them, one appears to have 3 bolts spaced out along a 10’ crack and a bolt every 4’ beyond that. This route was mentioned recently on this site but I was surprised to see that it still existed.”

 

How bad is the problem. How many bolts have been placed next to protectable cracks? How many routes? Last year RafaelH asked people to list the names of routes bolted when good crack protection was available. Very few routes where on the list. I don’t think this one was on it but was it bolted at that time? I seem to think so. If new routes are springing up despite continued debate on this site how effective is the debate? Have you made an attempt to contact Viktor and have him pass word to the FA party word of your concerns?

 

Quote from -Gregw –

“A generation of climbers is being brought up, or introduced to climbing, in the relative safety of the climbing gym. Thus, "badass" gym climbers make the move outdoors without the benefit of an education in style and ethics, or with ethics and style jaded by the safe bolt locations on indoor lead climbs.”

 

Seems like most of the questionable routes in the Icicle are actually at the lower end of the difficulty scale. Not something a “Badass” would aspire to. Do you know who is putting these routes up or are their genrational and gym status determined merely armchair/pub club reasoning?

 

Quote from glen

“If anyone has questions on the ethics of that, jst go back to the Beckey guides.”

 

The Leavenworth guide (old orange paperback) and the old Index guide both discuss unethical behavior by climbers. Not just bolting but pin placement too. Seems like a settled issue wouldn’t be brought up in two consecutive decades! Go read Mountain 63? (the Squamish issue) and find out more about Beckey and bolts.

[Dwayner]

"Basically – I agree bolted cracks are a NO! NO!"

 

This whole bolting discussion has sure taken a tame turn since the exuberant "debates" of last year stimulated by the chopping of Dan's Dreadful Direct, etc.

Instead of accusations of rock rape etc., now it sounds like we be getting:

"Bolts are bad for the environment and other fragile things."

"Oh my heck! What's with all of the bolts?"

 

[Peter_Puget]

Ole friend Dwayner -

 

Certainly you know I have been very consistant regarding this and my prescription for the cure. How useful was all that vitriol? Appearently not very. It just drives a wedge between people preventing beneficial discourse. Those who just want to enjoy a fight or scream loudly rant like the DDD debate. Those who care to create change reach out to one another with a friendly hand.

 

So...big hug Dwayner!

 

PP

[Crackbolter]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bug:

I got a crowbar for father's day. I'm going to Leavenworth this weekend. Anyone have a hit list?

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Plenty of rap anchors that need replacing. Ask Dru if he will go out and use his new-used drill to help out.

[AlpineK]

I saw Mattp use both a crowbar and a drill a couple weeks back.

[Peter_Puget]

Crackbolter - List the anchors. Those out to remove bolts why dont you also replace a bad anchor or put chains on a webbing anchor for every bolt you pull?

[erik]

some intelligence in this debtate!!!! yes crack there are many many anchors that need to be replaced throughout washingont....alot of burdo's come to mind(not saying they are dangerous, i ust look at them as suspect!!!)

 

i would think that more and more we need to address this as an issue opposed to some far out person's opinion on whgat bolts are right and which are wrong....cus no one knows which ones are right or wrong.....

 

ethical putrsits and rap bolters alike are the same person......head up their ass morons....rap bolter(which i generally oppose) and ethical purists(which i generally oppose) are more into waiting to talk then listening and creating a positive position moving diatribe.

 

share your opinions, but i would say anyone person is far from being right or wrong, though all the extremists are wrong......

 

ethics do change and are going to continue changing after we are dead and forgotten. this is soooo evident between everything. for instance lets use musics as a reference point. we all like music and it spans many many genera's.

 

black sabbath. 70's satanic band with lyics that made parents cringe and made teens angry with misguided/unwarrnted crys for the devil!!! as a deity. though there were (as far as i know) no direct admittance or support of the devil out right nor were there 3,284 swear words per song. still bad stuff?!?! their parents were sicked.....these same kids granted have grown older and wiser and music has adapted to their ideals in someways(media drivin of course) and evolved. this type(black sabbath) was not accpeted and feared. now a daze listen to rage against mthe machine. same general tone....fawk u!!! but now there is no avoiding the fact that the aggression and hate are right there.....they no longer skirt the issue, but tackle it outright, telling one that as long as the side the others they will pay and the word fawk is used like every fawkin word. this is music evolution(abridged and hacked)

 

so we see that everything sacred and not sacred changes neither for the better or for the worse. and i say that because better or worse is debatable and truthfully in my opinion a waste of energy. why worry about things that have little baring in the real world???

 

granted bolts and anchors are real clmbing world issues, but selfish ones. the oblter is selfish and the bolt chopper is equally as selfish.

 

i say concentrate on making things better and crowbars and attitudes are 180 degrees the oppsosite.

 

so instead of waiting to to talk, listen open your mind to a possible new idea that may or may not help you better you or your situation.

 

dennish, retro, dwayer, pope and all the other conservatives shoud shut up. we have heard their tired diatribe and in some ways i feel that theur continual tired banter takes away from contructive thinking in this situation.

 

i am not advocating bolting or chopping i am advocatinv reason, none to which i have seen displayed on this subject in sometime.

 

erik

climber, bolter, chopper, crack climber, aid climber, ice climber, sport climber, beer drinker, happy person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sk]

Erik- you RULE(dude )

[Crackbolter]

Captain Caveman,

 

Do you remember the grey TCU that you lost???

 

Well, I would have said something if you hadn't cheated on that one climb by stacking rocks at the base.

 

AID CLIMBING CHEATER!!!

 

No I don't have your cam but I know who does, you will never see it again. Sorry, thats booty.

[Crackbolter]

Captain Caveman,

 

Do you remember the grey TCU that you lost???

 

Well, I would have said something if you hadn't cheated on that one climb by stacking rocks at the base.

 

AID CLIMBING CHEATER!!!

 

No I don't have your cam but I know who does, you will never see it again. Sorry, thats booty.

[Dwayner]

"dennish, retro, dwayer, pope and all the other conservatives shoud shut up. we have heard their tired diatribe and in some ways i feel that theur continual tired banter takes away from contructive thinking in this situation."

 

This ain't the Erik I respect. (Are there two of them?) We aren't gonna shut up and will continue to share our viewpoint until every gym rat and grid bolter understands that bolting is a genuine issue. You might not like our style, but are you really interested in stifling free expression?

 

- Dwayner

 

P.S. In all that talk about music and changing times, I saw no mention of Kenny G. What up wid that?

[erik]

dwayner,

 

i show no personal disrespect and granted you and pope are toned down as of late, but what i am saying is that the rethoric is old.

 

you yell and scream about the ethics, but thats it. the poeple who are doing the bolting are doing it regardless. what does that say???

 

there is nothing new with this tired debate. granted you are right it is an issue, but the sad thing is that it is only a ethical issues to those who care. and i do not see this newer generation caring. is this the result of the gyms?? television?? parents not parenting?? i don't know. but to try and tell someone that they are wrong because they are young and don't know is the probably the fastest way to push people away from any topic.

 

there will and is going to have to be middle ground. where that lies i do not know. though the one thing that i know i can do to make things as best as possible is to make sure that i follow what i believe and know to be right....

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner –

 

The Erik you “like” must be the one that agrees with you! But Erik is right your behavior and some others here on this site has betrayed the fact that you would all rather flash a cutting remark than seek a solution to a problem. As such your actions do take “away from contructive thinking in this situation.” Of course to the extent they do that you are no different from and perhaps worse than those you criticize.

 

Kenny G wasn't mentioned because he is eternal!

 

Still giving hugs!

 

PP

[sk]

What I gathered Eriks point to be was that either side of the coin, is still the same coin. You have to be brave, and think about things in new ways to come up with real solutions...

 

You all have every right to say whatever you want to say, but that is some what like watching my children fight over a toy. "it's mine... no, it's mine." they are both right and they are both wrong... with that kind of debate... well hasn't gotten us very far in the 17 years (bonbon) that our extended comunity has been at it.

 

I realy believe from the bottom of my heart that we have to solve this, or the government will step in, and non of us will have the freedom and fun that we have now. So say what ever you need to say, but keep your mind open so that we have hope to extend to our children the freedoms and adventure that we ALL know and love so well.

[Bug]

The bolting issue is one of too few teachers in my opinion. This has already been said I know, but it is worth repeating if anyone will listen. There are a lot more climbers out there than there used to be. Many are coming out of the gyms. The number of climbers competent to teach trad leading skills is realatively small. It stands to reason that these new climbers are not all going to rush out and buy trad gear when they can't even be sure what they need, much less how to use it. So they stick to what they know which is wise and quite fun really. I enjoy an occaisional sport route. I just prefer the freedom to go where ever I want in the mountains wether there are bolts there or not. Certainly there are a lot of sport climbers who would never get into trad regardless. But my guess is that there are more who would branch out if it seemed reasonable. Whatever the case, it is very enjoyable to help someone learn how to trad climb. I think that the more of us who teach what we know about trad climbing, the more influence trad climbers will have on the bolting issue.

[erik]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bug:

The bolting issue is one of too few teachers in my opinion. This has already been said I know, but it is worth repeating if anyone will listen. There are a lot more climbers out there than there used to be. Many are coming out of the gyms. The number of climbers competent to teach trad leading skills is realatively small. It stands to reason that these new climbers are not all going to rush out and buy trad gear when they can't even be sure what they need, much less how to use it. So they stick to what they know which is wise and quite fun really. I enjoy an occaisional sport route. I just prefer the freedom to go where ever I want in the mountains wether there are bolts there or not. Certainly there are a lot of sport climbers who would never get into trad regardless. But my guess is that there are more who would branch out if it seemed reasonable. Whatever the case, it is very enjoyable to help someone learn how to trad climb. I think that the more of us who teach what we know about trad climbing, the more influence trad climbers will have on the bolting issue.

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WERD!!!! I'LL TEACH ALMOST ANYONE, WHO HAS A WILLINGNESS TO LEARN AND WILL ALWAYS TRY THEIR HARDST, BECAUSE IF YOU DO NOT TRY HOW DO OYU KNOW YOU CAN'T DO IT???

 

VIE VA LA' TRAD!!!