Winning Hearts & Minds Pt.371

[girlclimber]

Winning

[sk]

Winning

I know this is spray and all and you may not know telle nut, but one of our own has lost 4 of his coluges... is there no respect?

[cracked]

will reign. Sure there's respect, and I send my condolences, but s still rule.

[snoboy]

... is there no respect?

 

nope. none.

[sk]

... is there no respect?

 

nope. none.

Sometimes I find this al amusing but sometimes it is just too close to home. I may not agree with the war, but thease are our family mambers that are giving their lives over there.I certinly suport the people there. I have a hard time watching the news thease day because of this. it makes me cry to sit there and watch the memorials of lives over far too soon. Young bright amazing people trying to do the right thing. this could be me, my child... maybe it is because I am a mother and I can feel the pain of a mother. This could one day be my child. I do not encourage my children to head twords the military, but they come from a long line of soldiers, and I will not discourage them either. this is close to home and devistating. I can imagine how those men's familys feel. how devistated they are. Peace to all their hearts.

[Gripped]

\Mer"ce*na*ry\, a. [OE. mercenarie, F. mercenaire, fr.

L. mercenarius, fr. merces wages, reward. See {Mercy}.]

1. Acting for reward

Technically none of us are mercs as you propose because we are in the service of our own country fullfilling legitimate missions for our own country.

Hey Nonanon, Look at the def'n that you posted. Motivation is implicit in that definition. Tele is saying he's over there because of loyalty to his country rather than monetary gain... I tend to believe him. That means he's NOT a merc.

 

Tele-

Tough times man. You have people here who are sympathetic and supportive with what you are suffering through.

 

I would ask you to take vengeance with a measured hand... Not all the Iraqis are evil. You could do great wrong and injury if you act hastily or with partial information.

[Ratboy]

Considering Telle Nut has spent the better part of a year OVER THERE talking to and living with and arround the people who live there, I think the rest of you should STFU.

 

I appreciate tele_nut's point of view being in the middle of things, particularly since he turned down his attitude somewhat, but the idea that everyone else should "STFU" because they aren't there is rediculous.

[sk]

Considering Telle Nut has spent the better part of a year OVER THERE talking to and living with and arround the people who live there, I think the rest of you should STFU.

 

I appreciate tele_nut's point of view being in the middle of things, particularly since he turned down his attitude somewhat, but the idea that everyone else should "STFU" because they aren't there is rediculous.

people can talk out their ass all they want. but quoting NPR as a reliable resorce for factual information is stupid. I was sugesting that people who want TRUTH ought to go find it their own damn selves or realize that any information they have is filtered threw a several other sorces and people.

[MrDoolittle]

Hey Nonanon, Look at the def'n that you posted. Motivation is implicit in that definition. Tele is saying he's over there because of loyalty to his country rather than monetary gain... I tend to believe him. That means he's NOT a merc.

 

I call BS. It's the heavy coin that lures these dudes over there. If it weren't, they'd volunteer. They're in it for the guns and the money, and for the taste of living on the edge that they got one time, and are still looking for. They're addicted to the danger.

[sk]

Hey Nonanon, Look at the def'n that you posted. Motivation is implicit in that definition. Tele is saying he's over there because of loyalty to his country rather than monetary gain... I tend to believe him. That means he's NOT a merc.

 

I call BS. It's the heavy coin that lures these dudes over there. If it weren't, they'd volunteer. They're in it for the guns and the money, and for the taste of living on the edge that they got on time, and are still looking for. They're addicted to the danger.

that is the fucking funniest thing I have read all day.

[Dru]

Mercenaries are everywhere. Just read the Soldier of Fortune classifieds or watch how these mostly ex-FFL guys keep getting caught in Africa trying to overthrow the Comoros or Equatorial Guinea.

 

What is the diff between a mercenary and a soldier? Soldier sereves out of nationalism but mercenary serves for pay to anyone who's paying.

 

If Mike would or could quit if he didn't get paid - mercenary. Compare to Glacierdog who can't (AFAIK) just go AWOl if his check is late.

 

Being security, however, is not mercenary technically, unless you are working directly for the military. Who cuts the cheque? The pentagon or haliburton, or the UN? The UN is employing armed persons right now for security. So are NGOs and corporations. But since those aren't working as "combatants" for a military, are they mercenaries (paid soldiers) or just bodyguards?

 

Tough job anyway.

[willstrickland]

Did you ever think that maybe they are leveraging their best, most in demand skills? Doing the job they are most qualified to do and can perform better than anyone else in order to provide for their families as well as protect fellow Americans in a dangerous situation?

 

If you are a programmer, would you rather work at Circuit City making minimum wage or for a software developer paying you for your unique skill set?

 

All you knee jerk lefty liberal armchair generals would be cowering in a corner or grabbing your ankles and taking it if the shit ever hit the fan in the US. You'd better be grateful that there are still real men in this country that can protect your effete ass.

[sk]

Did you ever think that maybe they are leveraging their best, most in demand skills? Doing the job they are most qualified to do and can perform better than anyone else in order to provide for their families as well as protect fellow Americans in a dangerous situation?

 

If you are a programmer, would you rather work at Circuit City making minimum wage or for a software developer paying you for your unique skill set?

 

All you knee jerk lefty liberal armchair generals would be cowering in a corner or grabbing your ankles and taking it if the shit ever hit the fan in the US. You'd better be grateful that there are still real men in this country that can protect your effete ass.

well said will

[Greg_W]

Did you ever think that maybe they are leveraging their best, most in demand skills? Doing the job they are most qualified to do and can perform better than anyone else in order to provide for their families as well as protect fellow Americans in a dangerous situation?

 

If you are a programmer, would you rather work at Circuit City making minimum wage or for a software developer paying you for your unique skill set?

 

All you knee jerk lefty liberal armchair generals would be cowering in a corner or grabbing your ankles and taking it if the shit ever hit the fan in the US. You'd better be grateful that there are still real men in this country that can protect your effete ass.

 

Well said, indeed. Kudos to you, Will. Let's hoist a few in Fairbanks in May, if you are still there.

 

Greg_W

Edited April 1, 2004 by Greg_W

[Jim]

I find it a bit odd however that the military is out-sourcing military training and duties to private firms. The guys killed worked for Blackwater, a private security and training firm in N.C. that is run by ex-military. While they do train folks for private work they also have a multi-million dollar contract with the US to perform duties in Iraq that used to normally be done directly by the armed forces. So now we're shelling out $500/day (figure quoted in this morning's report) for expertise that used to be done by our guys in uniform. It's ironic that at the same time the administration is closing down Veterans hospitals and cutting back on needed mental health programs for those returning that they're increasing the out-sourcing for a big chuck of change.

 

I don't understand the reasoning here. Why not use that money to shore up the military health support systems and give the guys in uniform some more money rather than to the hired guns? Is it that they can't meet their recruiting numbers these days? Another reason not to spread ourselves so thin around the globe.

[sk]

IMO it is because they government can not get enough people to JOIN the military.I wouldn't be able to speak to the exact figure that anyone is making, but it is a pitance compared to what they should make. And along with this I will also say that teachers make far less than they should, police officers etc...I think as a country our priorities are FUCKED up.

[Bronco]

the contracted mercenaries that have infiltrated Iraq: "They swagger in and out with heavy weapons, with automatic weapons and pistols as if they're cowboys"

 

Are they supposed to act like an interior decorator or what?

[stinkyclimber]

Wow, I had no idea that market forces had such a big role in military affairs. Thanks for the education. I do have to say, it does sound quite scary. I can understand why this TeleNut fellow sounds like he does - he is in the middle of it - but I sure hope he is answerable and accountable to a chain of command like a regular solider is. His comments about retribution, while understandable, are likely not US policy. They are not US policy because random retribution of the sort he talks about simply breeds a reaction by the other side, which in turn leads to more retribution, and so on (like in Israel, and before that in Northern Ireland).

 

Foreign policy, like criminal justice, is best developed and steered by those with some objectivity. Telenut may have a unqiue and intense perspective in spades, but if he and his ilk are the ones running the show over there, than the whole place is going to end up endlessly reacting to personal, short-term objectives (retribution, profit, power grabbing, etc.) rather than proactively building something better and longer lasting (peace, stability, etc.).

 

I suppose if there is a need for body-guards/mercs like Telenut, then thank goodness there are takers for such a tough job, but they should not be seen as the arbriters of peace, or as objective observers with a monopoly on "truth".

[stinkyclimber]

Did you ever think that maybe they are leveraging their best, most in demand skills? Doing the job they are most qualified to do and can perform better than anyone else in order to provide for their families as well as protect fellow Americans in a dangerous situation?

I agree, but don't equate acting as a body guard with serving in a nation's military who's objective is to build a new state. Body guards react to the immediate situation at hand - protecting their client - while soliders operate under the orders of their government who have a longer term aim of building stability. One is reactive and one is proactive. Doesn't mean you don't need body guards, and kudos to them, but don't make it out like they are acting in the best interests of the US goverments. They are acting in the best interests of THEIR CLIENT (which is exactly how it should be).

 

Now, of course, the situation is confused considerably when their client is the US government! That I do find a bit weird.

[MrDoolittle]

IMO it is because they government can not get enough people to JOIN the military.I wouldn't be able to speak to the exact figure that anyone is making, but it is a pitance compared to what they should make. And along with this I will also say that teachers make far less than they should, police officers etc...I think as a country our priorities are FUCKED up.

 

Then how about mandatory military service for all able-bodied citizens, like in Isreal? Would you leave the kids behind and fight for your freedom? Or is it more palatable to stay home and pay taxes?

 

And paid guns thrive on danger. That's why they do it. Why is that so fucking funny? US troops, though paid, are not in the same catagory. Most were duped into joining up, thinking that they'd get to drive tanks and shoot guns and other cool stuff, and get some money and get college paid for, and now they end up eating sand and getting shot at and that is most certainly not part of the schpeel that the recruiter gave them. Those poor saps want to go home. Mercs are different. They get hard at the thought of the lawlessness over there.

[Jim]

That's the wierd part. Working for a private company is one thing. Working as a high-paid, tax-payer funded gun is strange.

[sk]

IMO it is because they government can not get enough people to JOIN the military.I wouldn't be able to speak to the exact figure that anyone is making, but it is a pitance compared to what they should make. And along with this I will also say that teachers make far less than they should, police officers etc...I think as a country our priorities are FUCKED up.

 

Then how about mandatory military service for all able-bodied citizens, like in Isreal? Would you leave the kids behind and fight for your freedom? Or is it more palatable to stay home and pay taxes?

 

And paid guns thrive on danger. That's why they do it. Why is that so fucking funny? US troops, though paid, are not in the same catagory. Most were duped into joining up, thinking that they'd get to drive tanks and shoot guns and other cool stuff, and get some money and get college paid for, and now they end up eating sand and getting shot at and that is most certainly not part of the schpeel that the recruiter gave them. Those poor saps want to go home. Mercs are different. They get hard at the thought of the lawlessness over there.

there is no way in hell I want to be there. do you? if you do you should go.

 

as to the rest of what you said, I would like to know what you are basing your personality profile on. I would also like to point out that as a cliber it is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black comming from you. I am not saying you are "wrong" persay. I just know that you are not exactly right either. Most of the cops, firemen and military men that I have met threw out my life have been somewhat adrenalin junkies, I am sure that is why I feel so at home in the company of climbers. Most of thease men (friends of my dads) that I have grown up arround all have extream hobbies of some sort. thease men all live life hard and put their lives at risk because they choose to, because they feel driven to do so or because they feel it is their calling. from my experience they live hard and love thier families well because they understand the imidiacy of LIFE. so you can look at it how you want and I will see it how I do.

Edited April 1, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer

[sk]

Wow, I had no idea that market forces had such a big role in military affairs. Thanks for the education. I do have to say, it does sound quite scary. I can understand why this TeleNut fellow sounds like he does - he is in the middle of it - but I sure hope he is answerable and accountable to a chain of command like a regular solider is. His comments about retribution, while understandable, are likely not US policy. They are not US policy because random retribution of the sort he talks about simply breeds a reaction by the other side, which in turn leads to more retribution, and so on (like in Israel, and before that in Northern Ireland).

 

Foreign policy, like criminal justice, is best developed and steered by those with some objectivity. Telenut may have a unqiue and intense perspective in spades, but if he and his ilk are the ones running the show over there, than the whole place is going to end up endlessly reacting to personal, short-term objectives (retribution, profit, power grabbing, etc.) rather than proactively building something better and longer lasting (peace, stability, etc.).

 

I suppose if there is a need for body-guards/mercs like Telenut, then thank goodness there are takers for such a tough job, but they should not be seen as the arbriters of peace, or as objective observers with a monopoly on "truth".

fortunatly I am not talking out of my ass. you are. I have read some about what telle nut has to say when he is not emotionaly reacting to his friends being killed. yes he is somewhat extreame and sounds more so on line. keep in mind that you are only reading a fraction of this persons thoughts.

 

I have often wanted to kill some what that has done me harm. yet I never have

[stinkyclimber]

fortunatly I am not talking out of my ass. you are. I have read some about what telle nut has to say when he is not emotionaly reacting to his friends being killed. yes he is somewhat extreame and sounds more so on line. keep in mind that you are only reading a fraction of this persons thoughts.

 

I have often wanted to kill some what that has done me harm. yet I never have

I am not sure where I accused anyone of "talking out of their ass", but anyway...

 

I agree that many people might say to themselves, "I want to kill that person". However, this is quite a different situation to the one Telenut is in: he is heavily armed, moving around in a fairly chaotic country with limited supervision and under an almost non-existent justice system, and where random and "accidental" shootings are common.

 

Furthermore, although I can understand getting emotional over the loss of life, Telenut was extraordinarly specific in his emotions:

 

"I for one plan on bringing some pain to some Iraqi's this time around and I do not care really if they suffer for the rest of eternity. Now it's personal. Unfortunately I am not in Fallujah very often."

 

and...

"Kill a soldier or Marine and you are getting the same reaction dickneck. They want what everyone wants. Revenge. "

 

THAT is a LOT different that you, living in the US, typing, "I have often wanted to kill some what that has done me harm." Yours is a very general statement, you do not possess the means, and you are in an environment where you would almost certainly get caught if you followed through on your emotions. None of these restraints are present in Telenut's case.

 

I can understand you feeling protective of your friend. I am not bagging on him though - I understand that he is in an incredibly stressful situation, one which I cannot ever hope to comprehend.

 

My point is that that is precisely why a nation state, like the US, with its attendant lines of command and accountability, must be the ones making and executing policy in a place like Iraq. With no accountability you have anarchy. And so I am questioning the appropriateness and the risk of a large number of privately paid body guards/mercenaries at large in what is a very unstable state. But that does not mean I am questioning your friend's honour, or motives or sacrifice.

 

I just don't think he is in a position to be making or executing policy, that is all!! And I certainly don't think he is the only one who can accurately or fairly describe what is going on over there, and how to fix it, as you suggest.

Edited April 1, 2004 by stinkyclimber

[sk]

I take that to mean he will do his job to the utmost of his ability.

 

you are wrong. everyone is capable of killing given the correct circumstances.

 

I don't think that you or anyone else has the right to speak to a situation so far r4emoved from it. You must go there and speak to the people and resurch the reality of the situation THERE before you can truely understand. so sure if you have been there 6 months working on reconstructiuon I would love to hear your opionons and thopughts on what you have found there and who you have met, and how people there have treated you.