EWolfe Posted March 13, 2004 Posted March 13, 2004 (edited) The video thread got me wondering what people think is trad and what is sport Edited March 13, 2004 by MisterE Quote
RuMR Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 how bout "Trad vs. Sport is a meaningless concept...just go climbing"? Quote
Fejas Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Question though.... Now lets say your out in the middle of no-wheresvile, and your climbin some choss, placin gear... Now after the first pitch that you just led, your partner reaches you and is sketched about the rock and his/her ablity to place gear on the second. So on up you go! Get to the top, you've just place gear on lead, in the traditional climbing fasion. Now the Question. Because your partner did not climb the rout by placing gear on lead do they not get credit for a trad rout, but rather a sporto rout? Or do they get the credit, because they climbed it on TR wile cleaning your gear?(pre-placed?) Quote
Alasdair Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Question though.... Now lets say your out in the middle of no-wheresvile, and your climbin some choss, placin gear... Now after the first pitch that you just led, your partner reaches you and is sketched about the rock and his/her ablity to place gear on the second. So on up you go! Get to the top, you've just place gear on lead, in the traditional climbing fasion. Now the Question. Because your partner did not climb the rout by placing gear on lead do they not get credit for a trad rout, but rather a sporto rout? Or do they get the credit, because they climbed it on TR wile cleaning your gear?(pre-placed?) Huh? Quote
Greg_W Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Or do they get the credit, because they climbed it on TR wile cleaning your gear?(pre-placed?) That's called a 'browneyepoint', 'cause they were looking at your ass the whole day. Bwahahahaha!!! Quote
whirlwind Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 go load another bowl brother, the question at had has to do exculsively with leading pitches a tr ia a tr on any route Quote
Thinker Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 'The leader must not fall'....gear is irrelevant. Quote
Alasdair Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 'The leader must not fall'....gear is irrelevant. Then why place the fucking gear in the first place. Quote
texplorer Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 In my arrogant opinion (IMAO) you are not "climbing" if your not leading or soloing. TR is practice. Trad routes are routes that you solely place your own gear on lead. If you don't place it on lead it is trad practice, aka pussie-point. (and no you didn't get the redpoint even on a 5.14 route if the gear was preplaced ) If its that hard and you need to place gear in advance then call it a naturally protected sport lead. But really folks, who cares, just do the climb. Quote
Fejas Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 go load another bowl brother, the question at had has to do exculsively with leading pitches a tr ia a tr on any route I know its about leading, but I was just wondering what people thought to some one following on a trad line. since we're on the subject and all, it kinda follows in the same lines as weather you think its trad weather its preplaced or not. when you come back from a trip, and your talkin bout the trad routs you and your partner sent over the weekend, do you say well I climb some trad lines this weekend but my partner just followed, so he/she didn't really climb any "trad" lines this weekend. That would just seem kinda.... well stupid, to me anyways... Quote
Thinker Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 (edited) Many years ago I was faced with a dilema....I realized that I didn't have what it takes to climb routes with ratings high enough to impress ANYBODY. I was crushed! After a couple of weeks of kicking things around and wondering why I'd even bothered to start climbing, I realized that I really liked the movement, the focus, the exposure, the comraderie, and the physics behind the gear. Who cares what the route is rated, I realized, as long as I'm having fun and pushing myself. Obviously, there are people with a different focus....they like to quantify their performances, spit hairs about what qualifies as what, and attempt to define the experience in quantifiable parameters. GREAT...enjoy your gig! Enjoy your chestbeating...and above all, enjoy your accomplishments. I, for one, am unashamed about my occasional 'french free' moves, clipping fixed gear or pitions, being thankful for bomber bolted anchors, and enjoying the good people I climb with. Yes, I prefer trad routes some days....probably MOST days. But let me go out on a limb here and say that the vast majority of climbers don't really CARE if somebody preplaces gear on a route they've probably rehearsed over and over on toprope...if that's their thing then let's applaud them and then get off the couch and go do something meaningful to US! Btw, Alasidair, I'm not sure I ever thanked you for insisting I tie into your rope and try that 5.11 something route at Vantage that I thrashed my way up a few years back. It's one of those memorable experiences that makes the climbing and friendships memorable. I didn't lead the route, I TOPROPED it, I hung on the rope, I rested, but I made all the moves eventually. Did I actually climb the route? (rhetorical question) Who knows? Who cares besides me? (more rhetorical questions) But the fact remains that I ENJOYED it...that's my real priority in climbing...and here's my vote in the poll..."who cares, as long as they're enjoying themselves" Edited March 15, 2004 by Thinker Quote
Dru Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 what about if you are attempting the route from the ground up, you place gear and fall off. lower to the ground, pull the rope thru and get on again, and climb to the top, but your gear is pre placed to the previous high point. So is this trad or sport FWIW I think pre placed gear is still a type of trad climbing, sure it isnt redpointing but redpointing itself is a sporto concept just like lycra Quote
Greg_W Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 In my arrogant opinion (IMAO) you are not "climbing" if your not leading or soloing. TR is practice. I tend to agree with this statement, as I don't necessarily feel that I have truly "climbed" a route if someone ropegunned me up it (as opposed to swapping leads equally). My opinion. Quote
Alasdair Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Btw, Alasidair, I'm not sure I ever thanked you for insisting I tie into your rope and try that 5.11 something route at Vantage that I thrashed my way up a few years back. It's one of those memorable experiences that makes the climbing and friendships memorable. Good we will have to do it again sometime. Quote
Squid Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Well put, Thinker! Climb for yourself, not the spraying audience of CC.com. Quote
whirlwind Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 In my arrogant opinion (IMAO) you are not "climbing" if your not leading or soloing. TR is practice. I tend to agree with this statement, as I don't necessarily feel that I have truly "climbed" a route if someone ropegunned me up it (as opposed to swapping leads equally). My opinion. i fell the same way, but it is also personal opinon, as long as u are having fun it really shouldn't matter, but i don't think you can say u can climb 5.10 if you cann't lead it, for one this really screws up other people, i've climbed with people that "can" climb 5.10 and so picked a route in acordence only to get up a pitch and find out they can't actually lead 5.10 , not that i mind leading but, swaping lead on hard multipitch is kinda nice, especalliy if u can't rap off on any given pitch. Quote
Peter_Puget Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 I have a much more personal definition of “sport” climbing specifically: I am sport climbing when I either start hanging or believe that I can hangdog my way up something. Take a bolted route at Vantage as an example of a modern bolted route and take “Tips” as an example of an easily protected non bolted route. If I apply my definition they can both be “sport” climbs. On the flip side take “Swiss Orange Chip” as an example of a fully bolted route that I would never conceive of as a sport route. “Stage Fright” would be an example of a non-sport crack route. Sport climbing is a state of mind. Quote
Rodchester Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 Traditional, or trad climbing, is the use of traditional (trad) gear to protect in the event of a fall. In trad climbing one may also use natural protection as gear by slinging trees, chockstones, etc. However, very rarely does one rely solely on natural gear. There is nothing natural about a cam, a nut, or a hex, or etc. Why are you using the term natural? Quote
willstrickland Posted March 15, 2004 Posted March 15, 2004 A little history (or is it trad?): Judging from the opinions in this poll, two of the harder "trad" pitches put up in the Valley in the 90's don't look so trad after all. Ron Kauk's celebrated Magic Line, at 5.14b, is probably the hardest pure crack line in the U.S. It is unrepeated, and was lead ON PRE-PLACED GEAR. Randy Leavitt's Book of Hate, a wicked nasty 140ft blank corner at .13d is also unrepeated. It is bolt protected at the bottom, and was lead wearing NEOPRENE GLOVES (which were conspicuously absent in the photos that appeared in print. Hmmm. It's all just varying degrees of style on a continuum. Obviously the best style is onsight free solo. Followed by onsight, naturally protected, all placed on lead. All the way to bolts every 3ft next to a crack climbed bolt to bolt with much hanging after extensive TR rehersal. Who cares really. Dogging routes is good training, but I don't suffer under illusion that it's truly "climbing the pitch". Where your personal standards lie on the continuum is not my concern. Beyotch. Quote
Off_White Posted March 16, 2004 Posted March 16, 2004 I'm with Thinker, nicely stated! Here, this is a trad ascent, right? Has to be, I don't think sport climbing even existed on Thanksgiving weekend 1976. Quote
Distel32 Posted March 16, 2004 Posted March 16, 2004 As Bob would say, "Back in the day...." "Woodson 11c" Quote
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