Softshells: the big myth

[marylou]

All softshells repel water nicely when new. It's pretty amazing how well a knit or stretch woven fabric can do this.

 

But....as Specialed has pointed out before, many softshells seem to be just plain old doubleknit polyester that's been treated with something. Repeated washings prove this out, as I've seen with things made, in my case, of Schoeller Dynamic. I'm sure there are other fabrics that would make my case. When washed properly, in the washer at Gentle, or by hand with Woolite, the stuff wets out after maybe a half dozen washings. Not true with laminates like Polarshield. They seem to hold up as long as you hang dry or dry on low heat in the dryer.

 

Anyone else had similar experiences? I'm beginning to regret the day I bought softshell stuff in light colors, which show the dirt. I think I've found a fix for this problem, but would like to hear from people about what they do to keep their softshells working like the day they were purchased.

[Terminal_Gravity]

I don't care about dirt or smudges on my light coloured soft shells, but I prefer dark for heat absorption. I wash only when they stink. But the true bottom line is; I think soft shells truly rock only below freezing temps.

 

I have had very good luck with Patagonia after several washings below freezing even if I am getting splashed by liquid water from a water fall that is still partially flowing. With wear they do start to soak in warmer temps. Shoeller may be alot worse than Patagonia because it contains Lycra, which is hydrophylic.

 

I love my soft shell, but I don't ask it to be completely waterproof in warm weather

[Beck]

you've washed a soft shell a half dozen times?

 

what are you, a dirtaphobe?

 

and what softshells do you mean? there's plenty. everything from a loden wool to high tech, really water resistant stuff. powershield is a softshell, and it has a lot of different face fabrics offered in different clothing lines, some which repel rain/snow better than others.

 

even with a goretex shell, these eventually lose their DWR, begin to work a lot less effectively unless it the DWR is renewed.

 

good luck, and don't wash your shells so much, weather it is gore, encapsil, powershield or dynamic extreme. Retreat when DWR is gone.

[iain]

I find frequent washing of goretex based products helps a lot with breathability.

 

I have some soft shell stuff. Overmarketed hype. Expensive leisure suit.

[IceIceBaby]

The reason I ware soft-shells is for windproof and durability. The water resistance is added bonus. Being wet when I can’t feel the wind factor it is just ok with me (=I don’t get cold really). Mobility is great (and most important property) with soft-shell. there is no constrains like you would experience from regular windproof shells and, it takes lighter material in soft shells to provide the same durability that u get from heavier plain nylon shell.

So do they work for me for what they intending…YES

Do I think in general that they WAY over-priced garments….HELL YEAH!!!!

Just look for some on sale and u don’t feel bad when they “don’t work” like YOU expected I have one Scholler (sp?) shell that I got from EMS for $50 and Patagonia Dimension that I got for $80 both brand new

[Lambone]

I have some Scholler stuff that I prefer to wear as outer layers when ice climbing...but still I just can't seem to leave the Gor-tex shell in the car. I prefer to have it just incase it's snowing hard, or the pillars are dripping wet.

 

It's more fun to climb in softshell stuff though, gore-tex make me feel like a gimp, and it ussualy wet's out just as much.

[troubleski]

yeah... due to the same process that gives us surface hoar... water vapor will always move from warm to cold...

 

there have been many times when, in my rush to get a plastic cup of Snowcap, I have made the mistake of forgeting to turn my jacket inside out... only to discover that the water stuck to the dirt on the outside of my jacket had been pushed to the inside by the temp gradient... making for a clamy return to the slopes.

 

I suppose if I just washed it one time, and maybe re DWRed it I could just shake a lot of that water off... but that would require doing laundry.

 

Softshells seem to work in the same way... and as long as the water doesn't stick to the dirt on the outside of the jacket or soak into the fibers (or the voids between them) than my body heat seems to keep me dry as long as it is decently cold out and I keep moving.

 

Epic always seemed like a good fabric from the stand point of keeping water from actually getting trapped in the fibers....

 

 

 

[Rodchester]

Softshell has a niche. That said, almost every outdoor fabric has/requires a DWR to work effectively.

 

DWR = Duarable Water Repellant.

 

Of course, we all know what Water Repellant means. But too many forget what Durable means. It doesn't mean permanent.

 

You have to apply additional DWR periodically. Generally, the more you wash a garment, the more often you'll have to apply additional DWR.

 

Each fabric or material is different in the length of time that it can maintain the DWR. After the garment has been washed, lay it flat and srinkle water on it. If it beads up, the DWR should still be good. If not, it may be time to apply new DWR.

 

 

[bunglehead]

I'd love it if I could replace my bulky Marmot shell, but nothing else cuts it when the weather gets really nasty. Kind of a rub though, because I only seem to need it maybe 10% of the time, or stopping for food, belaying. etc, etc. I hate leaving it at home, but I'd love something more streamlined. I've been thinking about getting a softshell, but the last few years what I've done is treat my fleece pullover with DWR. Works surprisingly well.

[Rodchester]

Bunglehead:

 

There are many manufacturers out there that are now making hardshells that are not so bulky. Patagonia is making some with strech capability.

 

Marmot isn't exactly the best. They aren't very inovative with thier hardshells and thier cut is way too bulky and sloppy. (good sleepig bags , but mediocre shells )

 

Look around. Look at Arcteryx and Patagonia in particular.

 

[cj001f]

Rodchester said:Look at Arcteryx

I've an Arc'teryx Sirius. Packs up tiny, not bulky. Awesome jacket - and widely available for less than retail now.

 

I must say I'm at a loss as too why you'd wash your Softshell that regularly. Unless it really stinks - just rinse the dirt off.

[IceIceBaby]

Rodchester said:

Marmot isn't exactly the best. They aren't very inovative with thier hardshells and thier cut is way too bulky and sloppy.

Look around. Look at Arcteryx and Patagonia in particular.

 

AHHHHH….PR at its best….what a load of CRAP!!!!

They all the same it is all matter of preferences and what fit you pocket GTX - XCR is the same on all garments with its certificate no difference in manufacture

That’s is why they give the PR companies the big $$$ so someone will make statements like this

Only things to consider for me are material properties, fit, weight, and cost (which can vary within the same manufacture) the rest is inflated bells and whistles tag (u see someone got to pay the PR bill... )

 

[Bronco]

marylou said:

All softshells repel water nicely when new. It's pretty amazing how well a knit or stretch woven fabric can do this.

 

Allison:

 

Softshells are not raingear and dirt does seem to be difficult to get out but, most people who only wear them in the field don't care about it. I have pants and jacket softshells and they still bead up water just fine. I've probably washed them 10 times in 3 years, only when smelly and they look like I've crapped myself. They hold up to abrasion and bush wacking much better than a hard shell, and if it's raining, I go home or break out a rain jacket. They shed snow just fine.

 

The main reason I like the softshells is breathability, they seem to be much more breathable than goretex and I sweat a lot so I stay drier with the Schoeller type stuff and don't have to worry about the random shower or wind soaking me from the outside.

 

Check out the Castor jacket by Mammut on www.sierratradingpost.com it's said to be the only seamtaped softshell on the market.

 

It would be interesting to find out what the real difference is bewteen Patagonias DWR and say, REI's or MEC's. That could account for part of your problem.

[Rodchester]

ICE:

 

I think you missed the point.

 

They all the same

We're not discussing whether the GoreTex used by one is better than the other.

 

I simply suggested that the bulkiness complained of is being addressed by some companies. i.e. Arctetryx and Pataguci. Pataguci especially has introduced some hardshells with stretch WP Breathable materials.

 

Remember, it was you that said you were concerened with

material properties, fit,

. Don't you think referring to a strech WP Breathable is exactly on your point

 

Sure its preference..that why I suggested that one "look at" these other companies.

 

Overall I don't find Marmot's hardshells to be innovative. Overall I find them to be cut poorly giving a bulky feel to the shell.

 

How is this PR? (Public Relations) Especially when coming from me?

 

Sorry man. But I gotta chuckle at you on that one. What do you think I work for Pataguci? Or maybe I'm just the anti-Marmot?

Edited December 3, 2003 by Rodchester

[IceIceBaby]

Rodchester said:

Overall I don't find marmot's hardshells to be innovative. Overall I find them to be cut poorly giving a bulky feel to the shell.

 

Depending on your body type…that’s is why I say… FIT…different manufactures different fit…is Scarpa better or worst then La-Sportiva

 

Rodchester said:

How is this PR? (Public Relations)

 

Think, think, think full page in climbing, rock&ice and alpnist mag', sponsored events, High cost (only the chosen one can afford...psychological game…. if it is soooo overly expensive, it must be GREAT....) to this I say BULLSHIT!!!!!

Where do you think is the HIGHEST markup of the outdoors industry

 

Rodchester said:

Sorry man. But I gotta chuckle at you on that one. What do you think I work for Pataguci? Or maybe I'm just the anti-Marmot?

 

Nah man,

You just a lost sole caught in the PR and marketing spider web

[erik]

patagonia stretch element 'nuff said on the whole subject.

 

 

[Rodchester]

erik said:

patagonia stretch element 'nuff said on the whole subject.

 

 

Oh oh. That's PR Erik.

 

You can't compare shoes to parka Ice. That's lame.

 

[rbw1966]

I have a BDEL alpine shirt made of schoeller material. Had it about a year now and wear it daily whilst riding my bike to and fro work. Its washed once a week so taht makes a total of about 50 or so washings. Water still beads just fine on it and unless its a full-on rain I generally stay dry.

 

I love schoeller for its stretchiness, durability and wind and water repellancy. Its not perfect but in my opinion its certainly better than wearing a gtx shell. I only throw my shell on now when its really windy and rainy.

[layton]

I wear it cuz it looks cool around town and I can throw around words like, "evolution," and "fast and light" carefree to all who pass by.

[erik]

Rodchester said:

You can't compare shoes to parka Ice. That's lame.

 

 

[Rodchester]

erik said:

Rodchester said:

You can't compare shoes to parka Ice. That's lame.

 

 

 

 

Erik:

 

I mean to direct that part to Ice, not you. Sorry for the confusion.

 

 

 

[cracked]

Beck said:

...just trying to keep the humor up, marylou!

 

softshells over goretex 90% of the time IMO.

But doesn't a softshell over goretex reduce breathability? Or are you cold? What's the point of wearing two sets of outerwear?

 

But you need to retreat either if the DWR wears off.

So you have to rap off if either the DWR wears off on your climb, or.....?

[JoshK]

If you wanks climbed half as often as you argued about fucking fabric technologies you'd have the entire Cascades range explored within a years time.

[marylou]

I was kind of interested in whether or not anyone had used something like Revivex or Softshell Proof to revitalize their SSs, whether or not hand washing was easier on the finish than machine washing (it is IMO), and which fabrics seemed to do better at keeping their finish when maintained properly.

 

I wash my one mint green Schoeller Dryskin jacket all the time because I wear it everywhere. To the mountains, the woods, work, the mall, wherever. Well, maybe not the mall, but the grocery store for sure. It's my most favorite jacket and I wear it all the time. I'm not a dirtaphobe, but personally I don't care for the look of grimy cuffs, so I wash the thing when it gets dirty. Same with my baby blue Schoeller Dynamic beanie. It gets dirty, I wash it. So far it's keeping its DWR better than the jacket.

 

I didn't pay a lot for either piece, less than $50 for both, but it's not about the money, it's about keeping the stuff functional. Now that outdoor gear isn't totally geeky and butt ugly, I wear the stuff in town rather than just in the mountains.

[Beck]

ain't no myth, just retreat!