Alpental conditions 11-22-03

[glassgowkiss]

pope you just don't know when to shut the fuck up. why don't you get your pansy ass down here to b-ham and i will give you something to cry about looser. you are just another sheep shagger.

[scott_harpell]

will. i would have to say that i agree with you. but i do differ on one point. this set precedence in teh PNW. it has moved the bolted TR into the mountains. sure it isn't far into the mountains, but it is a precident that i would rather we didn't take. it is that much easier for the next person to justify doing it somewhere else more touchy. i really couldn't give a shit about that area, but the precidence it is setting is not in character with the PNW scene IMHO.

[pope]

glassgowkiss said:

pope you just don't know when to shut the fuck up. why don't you get your pansy ass down here to b-ham and i will give you something to cry about looser. you are just another sheep shagger.

 

It's hard to imagine what Dwayner must have done to be banned from this site when this kind of threatening, insulting language is tolerated.

 

Glasgow, you win. I will shut up. I'm no longer interested in this "discusssion". Instead of addressing sport climbing/bolting in the mountains, you find it necessary to question my climbing abilities, and then insult and threaten me. Insults and threats don't constitute a discussion. As far as my climbing ability, do your homework. You obviously don't know who you're talking to.

[TimL]

Ya'll (big hint, I'm in the Midwest right now) sound like a bunch of little children pissing on each other at the playground. I mean really, its all fun and games. Its good that a group of folks have taken upon themselves to introduce a new type of climbing in the NW. This will hopefully up the standards and some interesting shit will be developed. You guys are taking this shit way to serious. Really, go out and climb something. I would be if I were in the area.

[erik]

pope i offer those facts to show you that these are not your gym bread climbers. there are climbers who have and will continue to push their abilites to the cutting edge of the sport. wheter it be in the mtns or cragging.

 

yup i do know them and a few of them do maintain their ability at that grade. and just for fun pope, i actaully watched my best friend onsite 2 .13 gear routes last fall and tick one with one hang(granted he is not the one establishing these mixed climbs) but i had to toss that out. apprently all you do is reading the climbing mags for your news as there are quite a few people who can do that. and i know quite a few of them(10?) so............................

 

iclimbed your bolted crack this year with several cc.commers....on beckfest weekend. so i have climbed your hypocrisy.

 

and no i am not a pervert like you. i would not use dubious means in an attempt to view a woman in a vulnrable position. why do you attempt to always steer the discussion away from reality?

 

again pope, you dont have anything to offer on any level, so why attempt to pretend that you do.

 

have a good one! offter to climb some cali granite!

 

 

[cappellini]

oh yea well i've belayed cool guys before too so there....and you know what else? my teacher let me look up her dress hastupid stupid stupid...the picturesof that stupid little pile say it all...i can't understand why the pope cares? or why anyone cares what the pope says?? if there isn't any pro than drill it, that's what warren and royal and fred and everyone else did...and there heros....it's that simple......and you guys really should whatch your foul language...a person's inability to articulate there thoughts in a public forum without profanity is just pathetic.....the f-word? i mean really.....pope's just jealous cuz he only has a hand drill and no friends....and goomba, stop pretending that picture of the pigrigger is you, ...cuz i know that guy and i belay him sometimes too...and he's really cool, so there..........

[scott_harpell]

cappellini said:

i belay cool guys. i am cool! i promise! hey guys! guys?!?! where are you going!?!

 

[pope]

erik said:

pope i offer those facts to show you that these are not your gym bread climbers. there are climbers who have and will continue to push their abilites to the cutting edge of the sport. wheter it be in the mtns or cragging.

 

Then in that case they should know better. Again, shame on them.

 

yup i do know them and a few of them do maintain their ability at that grade. and just for fun pope, i actaully watched my best friend onsite 2 .13 gear routes last fall and tick one with one hang(granted he is not the one establishing these mixed climbs) but i had to toss that out.

 

2.13 gear routes? Sounds like he's ready for third class, maybe a 3.6!

 

apprently all you do is reading the climbing mags for your news as there are quite a few people who can do that. and i know quite a few of them(10?) so............................

 

You know ten people who regularly climb 5.13 gear routes on sight? Bullshit. I've been around a bunch of excellent climbers as well, and I've never seen that happen once. It is the rare occasion when 5.12 gear routes are flashed, as mentioned by Dick Cilley in a recent thread.

 

iclimbed your bolted crack this year with several cc.commers....on beckfest weekend. so i have climbed your hypocrisy.

 

And this is the reason I'm calling BS on your "my buddies all climb 5.13 gear routes on sight" statement. You're absolutely misrepresenting the nature of a little 5.9 climb I put up in Leavenworth. It is not a "bolted crack" climb by any interpretation of the word. I've talked with other climbers who were there with you for the Rope-Up and they said the bolt was in an appropriate place, but that it didn't seem like a hard-man climb. You could do the crux without a bolt....I could have left it that way but a fall there would be deadly without the bolt. And there's no other pro in sight. If you can't tell the truth about this, why should I believe all of your name-dropping?

 

and no i am not a pervert like you. i would not use dubious means in an attempt to view a woman in a vulnrable position. why do you attempt to always steer the discussion away from reality?

 

again pope, you dont have anything to offer on any level, so why attempt to pretend that you do.

 

I'm offering some great advice about how to get the most out of mountain climbing.

 

have a good one! offter to climb some cali granite!

 

[pope]

Little Noodle said:

oh yea well i've belayed cool guys before too so there....and you know what else? my teacher let me look up her dress hastupid stupid stupid...the picturesof that stupid little pile say it all...i can't understand why the pope cares? or why anyone cares what the pope says?? if there isn't any pro than drill it, that's what warren and royal and fred and everyone else did

 

Drill holes in a little top-rope pile, in a high-use mountain recreation area, where people hike, ski and snow shoe for a little wilderness experience? It just doesn't seem necessary, and as Scott reminds us, this is sport climbing getting its toe in the door to the alpine. Pathetic.

 

...and there heros....it's that simple......and you guys really should whatch your foul language...a person's inability to articulate there thoughts in a public forum without profanity is just pathetic.....the f-word? i mean really.....pope's just jealous cuz he only has a hand drill and no friends....and goomba, stop pretending that picture of the pigrigger is you

 

I'm not trying to give that impression. I don't look anything like that guy....or the pig either! The removal of that pig, to the best of my knowledge, was the first case of chopping at Index. Those guys worked hard to hang that pig, and they did it after carefully considering every impact their addition would have on Index climbing. They so selflessly toiled to improve our climbing experience by altering that cliff......and then some sport climbers decided to chop the pig. Apparently, they took the moral high ground and decided what kind of rock alterations were acceptable and also who would be allowed to make them.

 

, ...cuz i know that guy and i belay him sometimes too...and he's really cool, so there..........

[cracked]

cracked said:

All this fuss about a few bits of metal in a chossy 25 foot cliff in the middle of a valley choked by a ski area, millions of snowshoers, ancient garbage dumps, etc, etc. Pope, I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree. Get that environmentalism attitude and aim it at the ski lifts and the snowmobiles. How about the hordes of snowshoes gapers that piss on the trail and contaminate the water supply? How about hillside erosion? Get political, get the mountains shut down, there are far bigger demons to battle other than bolts. Get with it, man!

I forgot to mention the condos and heated swimming pools and SUVs and diesel trucks! Bring your righteous religion and enlighten us as to why all of the above are OK, but bolts are the spawn on Satan. I'm curious, I really am. And remember, I am young and impressionable. Perhaps your sagacity can save me from these evil hordes.

 

As for your pig, I'd shake the hand of the man who chopped it. Talk about visual impact! It was disturbing the activities of the other climbers! Lame asses.

[minx]

OMFD! THIS IS SO ABSURDLY STUPID ON SO MANY LEVELS!

 

the bolt debate has invaded the ice forum (not that there's a mixed forum) now you wankers are arguing about the environmental impact. dose of reality kids: bolts have an impact...it's small but is evidence that people were there. get over it! yes the alpental valley is continually abused resulting from all the people who enjoy it in a variety of ways. but get real...we're here, living on the planet, so no matter where we go and what we do we will have an impact! we have to go someplace.

 

instead of fruitless arguing about the impact of people in the alpental valley, lets work towards preserving areas that are far more pristine.

 

instead of insulting people who use the area for non climbing activities (ie. snowshoers) why not spend time educating and encouraging these folks to be aware and lessen their impact?

 

these debates just boggle my mind. they are sooooo pointless. bolting wasn't the original topic now we've moved past bolting to the impact of the ski resort. UUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

 

people exist, thus have an impact. just b/c most of us would rather not see people when we're climbing doesn't mean they shouldn't enjoy the area also. if you want pristine wilderness you're just going to have to work a little harder.

[pope]

minx said:

OMFD! THIS IS SO ABSURDLY STUPID ON SO MANY LEVELS!

 

the bolt debate has invaded the ice forum (not that there's a mixed forum) now you wankers are arguing about the environmental impact. dose of reality kids: bolts have an impact...it's small but is evidence that people were there. get over it! yes the alpental valley is continually abused resulting from all the people who enjoy it in a variety of ways. but get real...we're here, living on the planet, so no matter where we go and what we do we will have an impact! we have to go someplace.

 

instead of fruitless arguing about the impact of people in the alpental valley, lets work towards preserving areas that are far more pristine.

 

instead of insulting people who use the area for non climbing activities (ie. snowshoers) why not spend time educating and encouraging these folks to be aware and lessen their impact?

 

these debates just boggle my mind. they are sooooo pointless. bolting wasn't the original topic now we've moved past bolting to the impact of the ski resort. UUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH

 

people exist, thus have an impact. just b/c most of us would rather not see people when we're climbing doesn't mean they shouldn't enjoy the area also. if you want pristine wilderness you're just going to have to work a little harder.

 

Nobody wants to hear it, and it is stupid to argue about it, I agree. But it is even more ridiculous that climbers are bolting a top-rope cliff in the mountains in the first place. There's absolutely no need for it and it reflects poorly on us. I saw the photos. What are we talking about, 40 feet of rock? And we need to bolt this because.....?

 

Say what you will, but this activity deserves all of the ridicule we can heap on it.

[pope]

cracked said:

cracked said:

All this fuss about a few bits of metal in a chossy 25 foot cliff in the middle of a valley choked by a ski area, millions of snowshoers, ancient garbage dumps, etc, etc. Pope, I'd say you're barking up the wrong tree. Get that environmentalism attitude and aim it at the ski lifts and the snowmobiles. How about the hordes of snowshoes gapers that piss on the trail and contaminate the water supply? How about hillside erosion? Get political, get the mountains shut down, there are far bigger demons to battle other than bolts. Get with it, man!

I forgot to mention the condos and heated swimming pools and SUVs and diesel trucks! Bring your righteous religion and enlighten us as to why all of the above are OK, but bolts are the spawn on Satan. I'm curious, I really am. And remember, I am young and impressionable. Perhaps your sagacity can save me from these evil hordes.

 

As for your pig, I'd shake the hand of the man who chopped it. Talk about visual impact! It was disturbing the activities of the other climbers! Lame asses.

 

Another limp argument. Are you putting yourself in the same class as an area skiier or a snow machine user? Do you think its appropriate for a mountaineer to behave this way?

[scott_harpell]

instead of fruitless arguing about the impact of people in the alpental valley, lets work towards preserving areas that are far more pristine.

 

that is what this is all about. bolting sprawl.

[rat]

"Those guys worked hard to hang that pig, and they did it after carefully considering every impact their addition would have on Index climbing."

 

uhh, not really. we did carefully consider how many boxes of schmidt it would take, however. that pigrigger is a bigger asshole than pollack bob.

 

either chop the bolts and continue chopping them until you exhaust your opponent, or go climb somewhere else. sacrifice zones for stupid 50' climbs (vantage, parts of the icicle, alpental) will always be cropping up to feed the lowest common denominator. alpine purity is an admirable goal but ultimately full of hypocrisy--let rome burn. there never was and never will be any consensus on bolting issues and like minx said, there are larger social and environmental issues that deserve more attention.

[chucK]

willstrickland said:

Would I rather them not bolt it? Sure. Do I care? Not much, it doesn't intrude on my experience, and unless there are people that were looking to do those lines ground up, it's not intruding on anyone else's experience either.

 

Could your last sentence be in error there? I think Pope's replies make that obvious. Turning a bit of the wilderness into an outdoor gym does intrude on some peoples' experience. Sno Pass area is a very popular place for climbers and non-climbers to play.

 

If "Bryant Buttress" or whatever they are renaming it is turned into a devegetated hard-packed mud climbing gym a la Exit 38, Little Si, or Index Lower Town Wall that will be a shame and it will intrude on others' experience. The arguments in this thread mostly seem to attempt to devalue these peoples' worth as critics. Ragging on Pope because he doesn't climb as hard as Erik's or Glassgowkiss's friends is an obvious attempt to do this. If Pope doesn't climb hard enough to climb these routes then he's not qualified to critique their impact on the area? I guess then that the views of people who don't climb at all probably really doesn't mean shit eh? Well, at least if they are against this new little outdoor gym anyway.

 

There is some value to the argument that people who don't climb that stuff shouldn't critique it because they don't know exactly what they are missing without it, but that only goes so far. If your actions are affecting someone you should probably take their opinion into account. Just because you don't use your cell-phone when driving does not mean your opinion versus using a cell phone when merging into freeway traffic is valueless.

 

I think sport-bolted routes (mixed, rock, or whatever) make climbing the equivalent of an outdoor gym

 

I hope the fact that there's usually a bunch of snow at the base of these routes during their heavy use will mitigate the impact, so it doesn't start looking like Exit 38 or the base of Sagitarius.

[pope]

chucK said:

The arguments in this thread mostly seem to attempt to devalue these peoples' worth as critics. Ragging on Pope because he doesn't climb as hard as Erik's or Glassgowkiss's friends is an obvious attempt to do this. If Pope doesn't climb hard enough to climb these routes then he's not qualified to critique their impact on the area?

 

That assumption could also be in error. It could be that Pope can't pull down technical stuff.....OR IT COULD BE THAT HE DOESN'T FEEL THE NEED TO ANSWER TO THOSE WHO INCORRECTLY ASSUME THIS. IT COULD BE THAT POPE DOESN'T FEEL THE NEED TO GO SHOW-BOATIN' WITH HIS CLIMBING RESUME EVERY TIME SOME NOVICE CLIMBER QUESTIONS HIS ABILITIES. It is just possible that Pope has accomplished things in the mountains that Erik has never and will never climb.

 

But I completely agree, Chuck, that no matter at what level one climbs, he should do it in good style and not leave a mess. Success in Patagonia, or having once belayed somebody who dated the ex-girlfriend of a guy who pink-pointed 5.13a....these factors do not imply the right to bolt whatever you want.

 

Establishing bolted top-rope climbs in the mountains is weak. The better climber you are, the more obvious this should be.

[pope]

rat said:

"Those guys worked hard to hang that pig, and they did it after carefully considering every impact their addition would have on Index climbing."

 

Pope says: That was supposed to be sarcasm. CrazyJZ told me some of the details. My point is that our "free thinking" sport climbing brothers should have been a little more progressive and allowed for your creative expression.

 

uhh, not really. we did carefully consider how many boxes of schmidt it would take, however. that pigrigger is a bigger asshole than pollack bob.

 

either chop the bolts and continue chopping them until you exhaust your opponent, or go climb somewhere else. sacrifice zones for stupid 50' climbs (vantage, parts of the icicle, alpental) will always be cropping up to feed the lowest common denominator. alpine purity is an admirable goal but ultimately full of hypocrisy--let rome burn. there never was and never will be any consensus on bolting issues and like minx said, there are larger social and environmental issues that deserve more attention.

 

Pope says: I can agree with most of that, but since many of today's first-time climbers know how to correctly snap a quick-draw into a bolt before they even know their belay signals, it seems appropriate to get the message out that not everybody agrees that today's approach to bolting is valid.

 

[IceIceBaby]

It is a wanker debate!!!

Bolt it if u like (=scared) or need to practice ground up …so it will lessen the impact in a way of accidents and crampons points scratches all over the “cliff”. By doing so you will be creating great place to get strong. When it matter like a lead in the Canadian Rockies (which is BOLTED all over the place) you wouldn’t need rescue which have a HIGHER impact. (hey we did the news couple of times last year…(=IMPACT!!!!))

Minimize the visual impact by using the painted bolts (man it happened to me time and time again that the section on the topo marked with bolt location and I couldn’t see it 2 feet away b/c of the color)

BTW I do have a hand drill that I use sometime nothing is wrong in drilling bat-hook, rivet, or holy disgrace …A…BOLT

[lancegranite]

Amen.

 

Now, if you all will open your bibles to psalm 69...

[Szyjakowski]

chriminey pope. why do you really care if they bolt these little roadside chosspiles... they're in the mountains you say but really if being in the mts entitles being so close to road for you....i am sorry for you. like rat said

go climb somewhere else. sacrificing these zones for such puny contrivant climbs does not hinder you in any one way so stfu.

[EWolfe]

I am going to weigh in on this because:

1. I just read this whole damn thread

2. The main developer of this area is a good friend of mine.

 

Alex didn't mention this, so it may have sounded like a threat, but the crampon injury was self-inflicted dry-tooling in his basement.

 

Pope: I, as another, have agreed with you on other things, but I have to say I am not with you this time. Your biases are rearing their ugly heads again. You are well on your way to being a bitter old curmudgeon that doesn't understand why everyone can't just be reasonable and see things your way.

 

If people want to practice whatever, live and let live. Ehmic and others already stated there are larger issues than bolts or sporto's in the mountains. Again, your prejudices seemingly disallow your perception of that.

 

To Alex and R!

[mattp]

Pope thinks he has to take every possible opportunity to get on his soap box and cry "HEY EVERYBODY - LOOK AT ME." A discussion of whether bolted mixed routes are a good or bad phenomenon or where and when they may be OK would be fine but he takes over a thread that was not about stylistic or environmental issues and spews the same old diatribe ... and then he tries to tell us what a hero he is because he is standing up for what's right in the world and kids these days would have no access to Pope's truth if he wasn't here to save us...

 

Please return control over this discussion to climbers who want to go climbing. If anyone wants to start a thread about the morality of bolting mixed climes, start one. But Pope has played his hand way too many times. How 'bout you limit yourself to like one a month or one every two months, Pope? Otherwise, it's just plain obnoxious.

 

As much as we all know that Glasgowkiss is the devil, I agree with the sentiment here (and I even agree with some of what Pope has to to say!).

[scott_harpell]

Ehmic and others already stated there are larger issues than bolts or sporto's in the mountains. Again, your prejudices seemingly disallow your perception of that.

yes. and other people are addressing these issues. climbers are the only people (aside from landowners) that control what is bolted and what isn't. saying that "well other people are doing bad shit in the area" doesn't excuse us form our own indiscretions. It seems that pope has not led into the personal attacks. these were perperated by those in opposition to him. in my short number of years, i have seen that people who resort to name calling in a discussion are either ill equiped mentally for the debate or they are on the wrong side of the fence, so which is it boys? there are issues that should be discussed when bolting starts too creep into the wilderness. i am not calling alpental the wilderness, but it is one step in the wrong direction. if you wanna flame me for this, go right ahead, but mabe you can think about what i have said and the precidence you are setting by going along with many small transgressions that are progressively encroaching on the wilderness all of us hold dear for recreation and to get away from it all.

[layton]

My skimming abilities are almost totally honed now.