TRs: Valuable or chestbeating fodder

[Dru]

[EWolfe]

ScottP said:

scott_harpell said:

Harpell, this isn't bivouac.com. A different beast entirely.

 

exactly.

 

So start a thread about what a cool guy Drew is at bivouac.com

 

Or don't support megalomania.

[catbirdseat]

Jopa said:

mattp said:

Is this why we have not a single route report from the Beckey Route this season?

 

Actually, there was one (CBS?), and the climber in the picture was flamed for "sewing it up".

I think it was dryad's trip report. That was dryad's first alpine trad lead and she did well to sew it up. The person who ridiculed her was properly chastized by others, if I recall correctly.

[ScottP]

MisterE said:

ScottP said:

scott_harpell said:

Harpell, this isn't bivouac.com. A different beast entirely.

 

exactly.

 

So start a thread about what a cool guy Drew is at bivouac.com

 

Or don't support megalomania.

 

Now why didn't I thnk of that.

[Dru]

catbirdseat said:

Jopa said:

mattp said:

Is this why we have not a single route report from the Beckey Route this season?

 

Actually, there was one (CBS?), and the climber in the picture was flamed for "sewing it up".

I think it was dryad's trip report. That was dryad's first alpine trad lead and she did well to sew it up. The person who ridiculed her was properly chastized by others, if I recall correctly.

 

here is the tr in question

 

I wouldn't call it a TR. It is more like a picture, Caveman style. Catbirdseat made the post. that villainous, evil KLENKE did the horrble flaming!!!

[Alpine_Tom]

I come down on the side of encouraging more trip reports. If nothing else, it would reduce the number of threads that start out "anyone know if N F Chair Peak is in?" followed by a dozen more riffing on "go look for yourself" and "it wasn't this time last year" and "I was up there three weeks ago and it didn't look good."

 

If you think a TR is lame, or not worth reading, maybe the thing to do is just ignore it. I would like to see more TRs on here, partly because they give good beta of where to go, what's in and what's not, what conditions the approach is in, etc.

 

I know that some (like Dru) climb more in a month than others (like me) do in a year, and climb harder stuff when they're down with the flu than we do at our best. Does that mean that no one who can't climb 5.11 or solo the Beckey Route or do a traverse of the southern pickets should be entitled to post a trip report without getting pounced on? I certainly didn't think cc.com is intended to be an on-line version of AAJ, and only grade VI climbs should be reported.

 

Last year I posted a really long rambling TR about soloing NE buttress of Chair Peak and spraining my ankle on the way down, and in retrospect I'm surprise no one jumped on me about it. I suppose it was a pretty modest achievement, but I was pretty proud of myself at the time.

 

Maybe the problem is that people aren't clear on how to post a TR in such a way as to make it clear that they're not chestbeating.

[mattp]

No, Alpine Tom. Very few of the route reports that are criticized have much or any chesbeating element at all but, even where they do, the main problem with chestbeating route reports is that the chestbeating police think they need to dump on the chestbeater. The sad reality here is that these chestbating police are for the most part the biggest chestbeaters on this board, when you really look at who says and does what around here.

[snoboy]

ScottP said:

scott_harpell said:

ScottP said

Harpell, this isn't bivouac.com. A different beast entirely.

 

exactly.

 

So start a thread about what a cool guy Drew is at bivouac.com cuz we aren't talking about that.

 

I think that's exactly what we are talking about actually.

 

As in; if you can't take the heat, then move away from the fire...

[catbirdseat]

When I think back on my climbs, there is almost always something that stands out about that climb that makes it memorable. It isn't always something to brag about. Sometimes it is a stupid gaff. Even though mistakes are embarrassing, they make for good reading. I think that if you can laugh at yourself, then others will laugh with you rather than at you.

 

What I try to do in a TR is to not spend too much time covering details of a route that are either common knowledge or can be obtained easily in a guidebook. Changeable features like snow and ice deserve the most detailed comments. Weather is something that is always different from one climb to the next.

 

For me climbing is as much about the people who are my partners as the climbing itself. Everyone is different and people say and do the most amazing things. I used to go on scrambles with this guy who always had the funniest hats. A whole collection of them. He's bring several on each trip and rotate through them. It was hilarious.

 

I did one climb this year with a guy who was constantly cracking jokes and laughing, even though we were on a seriously steep, exposed and chossy fourth class scramble. He made the difference between what would have been a miserable failed attempt and a fun outing.

 

So the best suggestion I can offer to others is to not exclude the mistakes, the little things, the human things. If the only thing that was memorable about a climb was a particularly funny joke, then focus on that. Of course, if you have a first ascent to describe, you got to give us the salient details.

[fern]

mattp said:

No, Alpine Tom. Very few of the route reports that are criticized have much or any chesbeating element at all but, even where they do, the main problem with chestbeating route reports is that the chestbeating police think they need to dump on the chestbeater. The sad reality here is that these chestbating police are for the most part the biggest chestbeaters on this board, when you really look at who says and does what around here.

 

duh!

 

this is a good thread. The clues are all there, can you put them together?

[Bug]

OK. So two weeks ago, my two little girls and I went "climbing". We drove up FS road 6300 to about 3500 ft and then hiked about 150 yards up totally treacherous trails of mud to a rain-soaked bog surrounding a pond named "lake" Evans. There were actually fish in the lake but, as Olivia pointed out repeatedly, I had forgotten the fishing rod. And the hot chocolate, turned out to be packets of split pea soup. A leftover pack of skittels and a wayward twin pack of Hot Chocolate saved me a drive into town. The echo was not stellar but enough to keep the bears away and Olivia recited every song she knew, one word at a time. Meredith could just barely squeek loud enough to get a squeek back but that produced endless giggles for all. Then my Trango 3 went up and we broke out the light sticks. After two hours of wrestling in the near dark, I gave up and nursed my flask of scotch on a damp log by the lake-pond until the cresent moon went behind a cedar covered ridge of no consequence. The only living things willing to reveal themselves were still my two mischevious daughters and I was out of scotch and the log had sucked my ass clean out of heat. A trango 3 is a serious mountaineering tent and I bring it out with the girls so I will remember them in it the next time I am in it and a long way away from them. Like Denali. Where my first trip away from them was a guilt wracked phsycology experiment that I eventually passed on to my wife so I could get permission to go again. That worked out OK. 2005. Acclimate at 14, do the WB and then fire up the W rib in a few days. If that goes well and the weather holds, the Cassin has been calling endlessly. Colin's Cobras may find their way up there.

Anyway, while I was on the log, Olivia and Meredith had unpacked my pack and put everything away in the countless pockets of my Trango. While I did not have a matching pair of socks in the morning, we did have a snickers bar that night. Maybe Greg put it there on the Stuart trip? Meredith set out to find the northwest passage the next morning and took us on a bushwack up the hill and back down a slippery creek with huge logs fallen over it. She probably did not see out over the devils club more than twice and still insisted on continuing because “she was the leader”. After discovering the wet aspect of a bog, we returned to camp and a hot cup of mint tea that didn’t go over too well. The bog smelling socks were wrung out vigorously and stored in my pockets for thirty minutes but still caused some whining when it was time to head back to the truck.. There is nothing special about a Jr Whopper but the stories we made up about our “climb” were worth posting on cc.com.

[catbirdseat]

Ah the joys of parenthood.

[JayB]

Bug said:

OK. So two weeks ago, my two little girls and I went "climbing". We drove up FS road 6300 to about 3500 ft and then hiked about 150 yards up totally treacherous trails of mud to a rain-soaked bog surrounding a pond named "lake" Evans. There were actually fish in the lake but, as Olivia pointed out repeatedly, I had forgotten the fishing rod. And the hot chocolate, turned out to be packets of split pea soup. A leftover pack of skittels and a wayward twin pack of Hot Chocolate saved me a drive into town. The echo was not stellar but enough to keep the bears away and Olivia recited every song she knew, one word at a time. Meredith could just barely squeek loud enough to get a squeek back but that produced endless giggles for all. Then my Trango 3 went up and we broke out the light sticks. After two hours of wrestling in the near dark, I gave up and nursed my flask of scotch on a damp log by the lake-pond until the cresent moon went behind a cedar covered ridge of no consequence. The only living things willing to reveal themselves were still my two mischevious daughters and I was out of scotch and the log had sucked my ass clean out of heat. A trango 3 is a serious mountaineering tent and I bring it out with the girls so I will remember them in it the next time I am in it and a long way away from them. Like Denali. Where my first trip away from them was a guilt wracked phsycology experiment that I eventually passed on to my wife so I could get permission to go again. That worked out OK. 2005. Acclimate at 14, do the WB and then fire up the W rib in a few days. If that goes well and the weather holds, the Cassin has been calling endlessly. Colin's Cobras may find their way up there.

Anyway, while I was on the log, Olivia and Meredith had unpacked my pack and put everything away in the countless pockets of my Trango. While I did not have a matching pair of socks in the morning, we did have a snickers bar that night. Maybe Greg put it there on the Stuart trip? Meredith set out to find the northwest passage the next morning and took us on a bushwack up the hill and back down a slippery creek with huge logs fallen over it. She probably did not see out over the devils club more than twice and still insisted on continuing because “she was the leader”. After discovering the wet aspect of a bog, we returned to camp and a hot cup of mint tea that didn’t go over too well. The bog smelling socks were wrung out vigorously and stored in my pockets for thirty minutes but still caused some whining when it was time to head back to the truck.. There is nothing special about a Jr Whopper but the stories we made up about our “climb” were worth posting on cc.com.

 

That is pretty sweet.

[Off_White]

Dru said:that villainous, evil KLENKE did the horrble flaming!!!

 

yeah, and I hear the guy has an across the board disdain for volcanos too, damned bigot.

[chelle]

Dru said:

Like everyone else I like to read but it doesn't mean I think anything written is good. I reserve the right to be critical and encourage others to do the same - only way to improve your writing is from feedback and personal reflection like you read something u wrote 4 years ago and are like "Ohmigod that sux."

 

A ass-kiss fest like on rec.climbing where any time one of the "old hands" writes a TR even if it about feeding their dog or some shit, 20 people post and say "oh nice TR, you the best" doesnt lead to any good writing.

 

This site has seen lots of TRs some good and some not so good. I say write more good ones and less bad ones. Pictures are good for people with no attention span. Funny is better than boring.

 

By all means post whatever you want but don't expect to post total BS and have everyone say it is wonderful. To praise shit is to diminish true gold.

 

The best TR I have seen in the last few weeks was Walk in the Freezer

and

Dru said:

ah yes. the TR is posted on a public forum but we are told only some comments are allowed to be made.

 

maybe if there was a forum called "Shitty TRs that no one can ever respond to" people could post the bad ones there without the FEAR of RIDICULE that is PREVENTING SO MANY FROM WRITING

 

I dont think fear of the comments Matt referred to stopped any of those people from posting

 

Actually I take it back about the Walk in the Freezer cuz Distel's mushroom trip and Glacier's parody or elaboration of Mike Layton's gym TR were better.

 

This board would be a lot better place if more people lead by example and spent less time being sociologically correct and telling other people how to behave.

 

Dru - I think your attitude in these two posts sums up how you tend to interact on this board. It's tiring too have to skip over so much criticism and sarcasm. Like others have suggested, what keeps you from just skipping over people's TR posts if you don't like them? Or sending them some constructive criticism via a pm? This might actually have a more positive effect than flaming them in public for not writing a TR that reflects your prefered style, spelling and grammar usage.

 

Overall my point was that I think there would be more TRs if people didn't have concern that what they wanted to post was going to be called dumb, too easy, uninteresting, or poorly written. Or be called a bragging chestbeater.

 

Why haven't I written more TRs? Well this year I haven't had that many days out there because of my shoulder. And last year I didn't write TRs because I figured I'd get flamed for the climbs I was doing. And when I talked to another cc.comer about how my climbing had progressed and I was really psyched to be leading 5.8 solidly in the Valley, I was told I was chestbeating. Considering the hardest trad pitches I had lead before my trip last spring were on the Becky route, I was really proud of myself.

 

And after this crowd's reception of my TR about my climb on Green Drag-on that was trolled out of me by a skilled troller, why would I want to post about my climbing trips and adventures on this site. I got a lot of "you didn't belong there" "you suck" and "go back to top roping and gym climbing" attitude. Rather than the "way to try to push youself" or "Wow sounds like you were really scared and had an intense experience" or "Hey, let's go aid climbing and I'll teach you a few tricks." But whatever. It hardened my skin a bit and taught me not to care about what a lot of people on this site think. And it's easier to stay quiet and avoid public criticsm...

 

The unfortunate thing is that if too many people do this then we don't have many posts about people's climbing trips and this just becomes a sprayground for political discussions and personal arguments... maybe that's what Jon and Timm@y wanted, but I doubt it.

Edited November 14, 2003 by ehmmic

[scot'teryx]

Why do you think I got a website?

I was tired of being flamed for "Granite Mountain Epics"

 

But seriously, the majority of the posters on this board are very quick to ridicule anyone who is not the hardman/woman that they are. It's really stupid.

 

Makes me wonder why such boards like mtncommunity.org or others have not gained more popularity. I think cc.com is totally addicting, I have idea why I post here. It's like getting your lunch money taken away at school everyday, but you keepo going back.

 

[sk]

I almost never read Tr's becuase by and large they are painfuly boring. I make exceptions for the likes of Texplorer, Willstrickland, Dru... and a very few others. I even more rarely write TR's. However if I DO, I tend to put alot of time and effort into them, so that they are entertaining, amusing or interesting. If I want to just log what I have done I will write an enrty in my personal journal. for a referance to my personal writing style you can check out "cracks ,mud,and the art of climbing zen". Yes this is a public forum... but that doesn't mean that shit should not be called shit. Don't get me wrong, I do not think I am a FABULOUSE writer... I am just saying that I put effort into a TR as opossed as to when I just post... I even spell checked that

[Dru]

i am such a bad person

it is true, i made fun of scotteryx. it think it was all after muir on saturday but i could be wrong

i have a lot of respect for scotteryx for growing up and becoming a sprayer

 

i don't just criticize TRs but photos too. just last week i rated someone's photo essay 1 star because it was an out of focus butt shot

 

i like to use the sarcastic icon---> too

[slothrop]

Ok, so Dru suggests that we should all be unafraid to post TRs because the ensuing criticism will help improve our writing skills. But what can one learn from insightful comments like "you suck, gumby" or "that route blows, you should have done X" or ""? The only people who would post TRs in the face of such pointless negativity are the clueless and the egotistical. So your style of backhanded, sarcastic criticism, Dru, is only likely to support a culture of chestbeaters who like to hear the sound of their own voice.

 

Be a part of the solution, not the problem.

[sk]

Dru said:

i am such a bad person

it is true, i made fun of scotteryx. it think it was all after muir on saturday but i could be wrong

i have a lot of respect for scotteryx for growing up and becoming a sprayer

 

i don't just criticize TRs but photos too. just last week i rated someone's photo essay 1 star because it was an out of focus butt shot

 

i like to use the sarcastic icon---> too

I have come to learn that mediocre people are unable to critisize what is not done well, nor are the able to acknowledge excelence. I agree with dru. write TR's but do them well ( as well as you can) and you will get better.

[Dru]

where is your TR slothrop? :confused

Bug's TR is pretty good except for the #8217's. You can get around this by saving it as a .txt file first...

[scot'teryx]

Klenke is the man that writes a TR that takes 2 hours to read, yet it only took him 1 hour to do.

 

i.e. Damn Long TR

[vegetablebelay]

The only place where we should be able to be critical is in The Gear Critic!

[scot'teryx]

vegetablebelay said:

The only place where we should be able to be critical is in The Gear Critic!

 

Is that where snowshoers and skiers battle it out?

[Stephen_Ramsey]

mattp said:

It was recently argued that nobody has ever trashed a beginners route report and that there is nothing negative in the culture of this board that would discourage less experienced climbers from posting here. I disagree.

 

We recently discussed the Mount Hood report where the guy noted he got a snowcat ride and was flamed for it, and I think we already discussed the several-page assault of Scott for reporting that he skied whatever it was - 70 degrees? - at Stevens Pass. Also, I look back at the reports of Chair Peak from this summer and I note that while I have deleted the snidest of comments, what is left still gives the very clear impression that a simple climb of The Tooth is not worthy. Every single thread contains references to "I soloed it" or "it is really a good climb in the winter" or "I climbed it in three hours car-to-car" or whatever. Similarly, somebody reports an attempt of Silver Star (a 150 foot class III scramble) and the response is "you should have run up Burgundy" (a 5.8 6-pitch rock climb). For the West Ridge of Forbidden, one of the most popular routes in the state, there are few reports but all of those from this season deal with car-to-car speed or solo climbing the route and at least one of them contains the response "great -- another chestbeater report on the West Ridge". Similarly, when someone asked about the Sitkum Glacier not long ago (another of the State's most popular climbs) somebody responsd that it is a stupid route and he would NEVER climb it again because it was so boring. For Mount Adams, somebody asked whether he needed to bring crampons on the south ridge and he got a lot of good information but he also had somebody say "totally unnecessary – there is absolutely no exposure at all." What if somebody is proud of climbing The Tooth and thinks they weren't a complete idiot to go the wrong way around the pinnacle south of Pinneapple Pass and somebody else might want to know where NOT to go? Or the guy who attempted Silver Star - was he supposed to feel proud of his attempt on a scramble route when he was told he should have "run up" a technical rock climb in stead? Wouldn't this kind of thing tend to discourage people who are not strong technical climbers from posting their trip reports or even asking for beta? Is this why we have not a single route report from the Beckey Route this season? One report of a climb of the Emmons Glacier? Neither of these are "trivial" routes, in my book, and I bet there are lots of people who would like to read about them.

 

Mattp,

 

I totally agree with your post. Several times I've posted on CC.com asking for beta on a moderate/easy route, and received a snide or belligerent response. I've observed a clear tendancy on this web site for some people to back-handedly put down (or worse still, directly belittle) TRs of easy routes.

 

I'm not whining or complaining. CC.com is what it is. I'm just agreeing with your post, and making the point that that beginners *do* notice the subtle (and not-so-subtle) put-downs that inevitably follow a trip report posting for a moderate route. Count me as one person who chooses to post his gumby/beginner trip reports elsewhere (in what is frankly, a less judgemental/negative forum). I'm sure there are others.

 

Inevitably someone is going to reply to this saying "who cares" or "fewer gumby TRs -- no big loss", or whatever. In a small way, it will just validate my point.

 

I do enjoy and appreciate CC.com for what it does well, especially getting the latest information on ice conditions. But let's not kind ourselves-- it isn't particularly newbie-friendly.