debate fodder: lots of new climbers

[mattp]

Scott -

Can you name any climbs that have three bolts in six feet - apart from a belay station? You are worse than Pope when it comes to rediculous rhetoric.

[RuMR]

well scott, you're a stud!

 

If i was near my limit and near the ground w/ talus, and the gear opportunities were available, i'd probably have about the same amount of gear in as those bolts...

 

Broken ankles suck

[RuMR]

mattp said:

Scott -

Can you name a single place in the State of Washington where there are three bolts in six feet - apart from a belay station? You are worse than Pope.

 

I think his pic is showing that...and newhalem is a total atrocity as far as the bolting...

[slaphappy]

pope said:

erik said:

pope

 

what gives you the authotity to be the savior of clean climbing? for all i know you have done exactly what you claim to be bad....

 

what of your squeeze job on secret dome? or the bolted cracks up by carnival? both of those go against your dumb rant. i am sure i could find more of your trangessions, as once an offender always an offender.....

 

 

 

The thing on Secret Dome is...I don't know....ten years old or so. I don't really think I ruined the place, given all of the completely bolt-dependent routes already on the dome. My variation used only two bolts, and I put the bolts in on the lead which, in my way of thinking, makes them the only legitimate bolts on the dome. It is ran-out and 5.11, which adds something to the monotone of 5.10 slab climbing one finds there. I'm happy to help you chop it if you're disgusted by it, and I hope you'll help me chop a few bolts while you're at it.

 

I didn't bolt any cracks by Carnival Crack. I put up (with Scotty Hopkins, not Dave Bale) a crack route which uses one bolt for pro, right at the face climbing crux. This move is by far the hardest on the route. Without the bolt, the fall would probably be fatal. If you didn't recognize this, you probably haven't climbed the route.

 

I could have easily climbed through. The 5.9+ grade is something I can handle with or without a bolt, but I thought that it would be responsible to have a solid bolt on that move.

 

Please don't spread the rumor that I put up a sport climb in Leavenworth, or that I bolted next to a crack. It just isn't true. And MattP, when I make a mistake, I'll be the first to admit it; I don't need your help. The climb by Carnival Crack completely complies with what I have so many times outlined to be the reasonable and responsible application of bolts.

 

Those of you who think it is ridiculous to say "every bolt is a crime" are absolutely correct, and I have never said that. I have pointed out that discrete bolting can add to the climbing experience without seriously compromising the aesthetics of a cliff. THE PROBLEM IS, TOO MANY CLIMBERS JUST DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT DISCRETE BOLTING IS ALL ABOUT.

 

 

 

Pope,

I commend your effort at Secret Dome. It must have been difficult to even hang on hooks and place the bolts on lead. Although judging from your past and present opinions, wouldn't it have been better left as a top rope? It is a variation and a bit of a squeeze job.

 

The bolt on Carnival is necessary and accurately placed. Using this as an example, can you see how a rappel placed bolt with an electric drill can be viewed as constructive?

 

Kudos to a fairly civil debate

[scott_harpell]

mattp said:

Scott -

Can you name any climbs that have three bolts in six feet - apart from a belay station? You are worse than Pope when it comes to rediculous rhetoric.

 

[mattp]

RuMR said:

[i think his pic is showing that...and newhalem is a total atrocity as far as the bolting...

Scott said:

 

 

Allright, you got me there. I look back at that picture and it does kind of look like that. There is one climb that has three bolts in six feet and maybe there is another one at Newhalem. It must be that, with my affection for the shiny little guys, I just don't see what the world is coming to. Bolts are taking over our roadcuts and I can't even see it. I need help.

 

 

[scott_harpell]

RuMR said:

well scott, you're a stud!

 

no... i am too gripped to place gear.

[bunglehead]

Damn, those bolts are too close together. Talk about overkill.

[scott_harpell]

bunglehead said:

Damn, those bolts are too close together. Talk about overkill.

 

ay... there's the rub.

[pope]

Parade of clowns (vertical)

 

 

 

 

Horizontal

 

[RuMR]

Damn it, pope...

 

Now quit it! And don't go looking for those stupid richard simmons garbage pics either...

[slothrop]

About why Exit 38 is so popular: if there was a place to climb dozens of cracks, some of them sheltered from rain and climbable in the winter, with a minimal approach and close to the highway, would you go there? What if it was the closest such place to the largest metropolitan area in Washington? Would you expect there to be large groups of people there? Would the largest concentration of people be on the easier routes?

 

Ever been to Index on a nice weekend and seen the Great Northern Slab? Maybe we should fill cracks with concrete, since they obviously cause environmental impact by their mere presence.

 

This is the same kind of hyperbole you're spraying, Scott.

[RuMR]

slothrop said:

About why Exit 38 is so popular: if there was a place to climb dozens of cracks, some of them sheltered from rain and climbable in the winter, with a minimal approach and close to the highway, would you go there? What if it was the closest such place to the largest metropolitan area in Washington? Would you expect there to be large groups of people there? Would the largest concentration of people be on the easier routes?

 

Ever been to Index on a nice weekend and seen the Great Northern Slab? Maybe we should fill cracks with concrete, since they obviously cause environmental impact by their mere presence.

 

This is the same kind of hyperbole you're spraying, Scott.

Nice...fire w/ fire...

 

But scott only goes on monday to snag stuck gear...so he wouldn't know

[mattp]

Yo Pope: wanna take a stab at "the question?"

[scott_harpell]

RuMR said:

slothrop said:

About why Exit 38 is so popular: if there was a place to climb dozens of cracks, some of them sheltered from rain and climbable in the winter, with a minimal approach and close to the highway, would you go there? What if it was the closest such place to the largest metropolitan area in Washington? Would you expect there to be large groups of people there? Would the largest concentration of people be on the easier routes?

 

Ever been to Index on a nice weekend and seen the Great Northern Slab? Maybe we should fill cracks with concrete, since they obviously cause environmental impact by their mere presence.

 

This is the same kind of hyperbole you're spraying, Scott.

Nice...fire w/ fire...

 

But scott only goes on monday to snag stuck gear...so he wouldn't know

 

mabe you should yank the anchor bolts on GNS and require parties to continue all the way up instead...

 

and or your rain sheltered hyperbole question... how about top roping... how about the gym...

[pope]

slaphappy said:

 

Pope,

I commend your effort at Secret Dome. It must have been difficult to even hang on hooks and place the bolts on lead. Although judging from your past and present opinions, wouldn't it have been better left as a top rope? It is a variation and a bit of a squeeze job.

 

The bolt on Carnival is necessary and accurately placed. Using this as an example, can you see how a rappel placed bolt with an electric drill can be viewed as constructive?

 

Kudos to a fairly civil debate

 

The Secret Dome climb would best be left as a top-rope, if it had started that way. I clipped on some wire brushes and a hand drill and just started climbing. The result is a fair climb, and the only true lead-established route there.

 

The bolt by Carnival Crack was initially drilled on lead, but the bit I'd purchased didn't truly match the bolt size I had with me (not my fault). Because it was the only pro for the crux, and since if the bolt failed it would be really terrible, I decided to borrow a power drill and place a 1/2" bolt.

 

A few people do establish routes on rap and do a nice job, and I've agreed with that point many times. But in general, too many rap-bolted routes turn out to be low-adventure, low challenge, unaesthetic bolt trails. If we were to agree that placing bolts should be done on the lead, and if we could get everybody on board, a crisis like what we witnessed in Vantage would never happen again.

Edited November 18, 2003 by pope

[mattp]

Some places might be top-roped, but of course we've already talked about how you and Pope don't think sport climbing is any different from top-roping in terms of challenge although just about everybody else in the world disagrees with you. And then you also have to consider more practical rather than emotional issues: at Little Si the state asked climbers NOT to utilize the top of the cliffs, and at Vantage it is actually deadly to top out on many of the climbs -- especially the crack climbs. Yes, there are entire climbing areas where routes are excluslively top-roped, but that is not going to answer any debate here.

[lummox]

pope said:

The bolt on Secret Dome was initially drilled on lead, but the bit I'd purchased didn't truly match the bolt size I had with me (not my fault). Because it was the only pro for the crux, and since if the bolt failed it would be really terrible, I decided to borrow a power drill and place a 1/2" bolt.

avoidin sponsibility. blamin da tools.

weak dude.

[scott_harpell]

mattp said:

Yes, there are entire climbing areas where routes are excluslively top-roped, but that is not going to answer any debate here.

 

 

 

why not? as RUMR stated before... sport climbing is about the gymnastic movements rather than getting broken bones and dying sending... interpolating, i would say that TRing would be the perfect solution. your moves are unincumbered by the annoyance of clipping and you are not gonna get hurt. what's the problem with that? what is the difference? i climbed sport at deception crags and at skaha and at both places i was on 'top-rope' on lead anyways... what is the difference? dont look as cool? dont feel so 'hardcore'?

[mattp]

Pope, you might be right about the fact that few climbs would go up if everybody had to lead them, but in fact just about all of what I think are the true atrocities in Darrington were all done on the lead. There are probably a dozen climbs that feature virtual bolt ladders right off the ground on terrain that is no more than 5.10, several of which don't really go anywhere. I offered to take you and Dwayner to climb at Three O'Clock Rock, so you could sample a rap-bolted route and compare it wo one of these old "classics," but you declined.

[slothrop]

scott_harpell said:

mabe you should yank the anchor bolts on GNS and require parties to continue all the way up instead...

 

and or your rain sheltered hyperbole question... how about top roping... how about the gym...

 

I can't imagine that the only thing keeping the newbies from running screaming from the fine climbing on the GNS is the security of those two giant bolts (which were not placed by climbers and never intended for climbing use, I would suppose).

 

Would you go to the gym instead of climbing outside if you had the choice? I like the cracks at Stone Gardens, but not that much.

 

On the subject of top-roping:

Leaving aside the fact that not all sport climbs, even single pitches, can be set with top-rope anchors by walking to the top or even rappelling, why is leading on bolts more popular than top-roping those same climbs? Perhaps the overhanging nature of some sport crags has influenced the preference of bolted leading vs. top-roping. It's a pain in the ass to TR something if a fall sends you ten feet out from the wall.

[Bug]

If you chop the bolts on the GNS you will have the WA Historical Society after you.

I've been looking at the area where they took most of the blocks and it is starting to look almost stable. I have been thinking about a organized recon/loose rock trundleing party up there. Has anyone brought this up before?

[scott_harpell]

I can't imagine that the only thing keeping the newbies from running screaming from the fine climbing on the GNS is the security of those two giant bolts (which were not placed by climbers and never intended for climbing use, I would suppose).

 

i wasn't talking about those ones. higher.

[RuMR]

scott_harpell said:

mattp said:

Yes, there are entire climbing areas where routes are excluslively top-roped, but that is not going to answer any debate here.

 

 

why not? as RUMR stated before... sport climbing is about the gymnastic movements rather than getting broken bones and dying sending... interpolating, i would say that TRing would be the perfect solution. your moves are unincumbered by the annoyance of clipping and you are not gonna get hurt. what's the problem with that? what is the difference? i climbed sport at deception crags and at skaha and at both places i was on 'top-rope' on lead anyways... what is the difference? dont look at cool? dont feel so 'hardcore'?

 

Some routes are a muthaphuckin' pain in the ass to rig a top rope...and there are many many sport routes that have some big fall potential w/ real hard climbing to get to clipping stances...

 

I know i know i know, NOT EVERY LINE HAS TO BE CLIMBED...

[pope]

mattp said:

Yo Pope: wanna take a stab at "the question?"

 

Oh...OK. I have a problem with logging at the base of a cliff. I should have put an equal effort into protesting this commong practice, since we see so much of this.

 

So climbing destroys....what kind of plant life? Lichen? Moss? Do we have any problem getting moss to grow back on an Index climb that hasn't been climbed in a season?

 

My biggest gripe is certainly with bolts. How many times have I said that they don't kill salmon, that my protest is motivated by aesthetic concerns, rather than environmental concerns? Bolts are visual pollution. They look really alien, far more alien than a little rock scar that results from a flake popping off under a climber's foot, and they are quite permanent. Outside of aesthetics, there is the issue of challenge reduction, of the tendency of sport climbers to avoid pioneering thought-provoking, adventurous lines (witness the Exit 38 photos). You put all of this together, you weigh up the pros and cons, you ask whether we could have any fun without bolts, and then you just figure it out: bolts is evil. Let's put the brakes on this runaway train.