iain Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Chief take that chief! (or "cheif", as some seem to prefer ) Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Distel32 said: fuck bolts and RPs, do it Kehl style and solo the mothafucka xactly! Quote
mattp Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 I think that with all this "take that, chief" we have lost track of any kind of a sensible discussion here. Scott may not feel this way, but the vast majority of climbers these days are willing to accept there being a sport climbing area at Exit 38, even if they think it sucks, and I do not know of a single sport climber who thinks there should not be a bunch of unbolted crack climbs at Index. Whether or not Scott is an idiot, chief, is amusing for a moment perhaps, but the interesting questions come when we look at newly developing areas or at the reality or the potential for sport climbing to intrude on previously traditional areas. Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... Why not just go up the route w/ your rack and not clip the bolts if you really wanna be on the edge? Oh right, forgot, that offense to your aesthetic feel will be so great that you'll be unable to concentrate on the wicked runouts Quote
Dave_Schuldt Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Move this to spray. I can't beleve this has gone on this long. Where is Dwayner when we need him? Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 joe_average said: scott_harpell said: Chopping bolts is more of a law thing than placing bolts. Same thing as somebody painting a "Caution children" sign to place in the street and having someone come and take it down because they put a whole in the ground instead of making a stand for it so it doesn't hurt the environment. Bolts are a safety factor in most cases. but climbers go out of there way to go on a climb and should be prepared for he endeavor. 6 year old crossign the street do so out of necessity. weak juxtaposition. bolts are for safety? well if you are concerned about safety, then climbing is not the sport for you. people die all the time doign this sport. this is a sport of calculated risks. if you aren't up for a certain climb then wait until you get stronger/bolder (alaCroft) and climb that shit! Nice chestbeat for a wanker! PS Rudy, I nearly sprayed coffee out of my nose! Just make sure you don't spray it on your school work... Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? Quote
Distel32 Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Erik: Kehl didn't TR "Evilution" and that is twice as high as "The Fly" Crux of evilution is at 25ft, crux of the fly 3ft. Quote
mattp Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Actually, Dave, if you look back at the thread you will see that there has been a lot of real discussion here with good points made all around (well, errh, "chief" Scott notwithstanding ). Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? Quote
joe_average Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Distel32 said: Erik: Kehl didn't TR "Evilution" and that is twice as high as "The Fly" Crux of evilution is at 25ft, crux of the fly 3ft. But if you blow the crux of the Fly you 'fly' past the 3ft landing zone onto a much lower and nastier landing zone, at least from what I've seen in the movies. And didn't some french guy break an ankle despite the pads trying to repeat Evilution? Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 why do we have to climb every climb? it is the reward for getting strong and working hard at climbing and getting a good 'head' for leading spicy routes for the elite to be able to climb these sketchy routes. i dont think every route need to be climbed by 100% of climbers. i think it is great that there are come climbs that 95% of the population wouldn't even try. it mystifies the accomplishments of those who have made the sacrifice, dedication and the effort to climb something soo hard and bold. it is in a word inspiring. Quote
Al_Pine Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 RuMR said: Why not just go up the route w/ your rack and not clip the bolts if you really wanna be on the edge? Because you won't be on the edge. There will be bolts there. Your argument only makes sense if it was a free solo (zero gear) before the bolts went in. Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best? Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 well, my approach is that there are "areas" like English gritstone, and German Elbsandstein and Indian Creek and cracks in any granite areas that are deemed "traditional" and left that way... Other areas are sport intensive... Seems very obvious to me, and i think the only conflict, is like Matt said, what do with new areas! Quote
pope Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 erik said: pope what gives you the authotity to be the savior of clean climbing? for all i know you have done exactly what you claim to be bad.... what of your squeeze job on secret dome? or the bolted cracks up by carnival? both of those go against your dumb rant. i am sure i could find more of your trangessions, as once an offender always an offender..... The thing on Secret Dome is...I don't know....ten years old or so. I don't really think I ruined the place, given all of the completely bolt-dependent routes already on the dome. My variation used only two bolts, and I put the bolts in on the lead which, in my way of thinking, makes them the only legitimate bolts on the dome. It is ran-out and 5.11, which adds something to the monotone of 5.10 slab climbing one finds there. I'm happy to help you chop it if you're disgusted by it, and I hope you'll help me chop a few bolts while you're at it. I didn't bolt any cracks by Carnival Crack. I put up (with Scotty Hopkins, not Dave Bale) a crack route which uses one bolt for pro, right at the face climbing crux. This move is by far the hardest on the route. Without the bolt, the fall would probably be fatal. If you didn't recognize this, you probably haven't climbed the route. I could have easily climbed through. The 5.9+ grade is something I can handle with or without a bolt, but I thought that it would be responsible to have a solid bolt on that move. Please don't spread the rumor that I put up a sport climb in Leavenworth, or that I bolted next to a crack. It just isn't true. And MattP, when I make a mistake, I'll be the first to admit it; I don't need your help. The climb by Carnival Crack completely complies with what I have so many times outlined to be the reasonable and responsible application of bolts. Those of you who think it is ridiculous to say "every bolt is a crime" are absolutely correct, and I have never said that. I have pointed out that discrete bolting can add to the climbing experience without seriously compromising the aesthetics of a cliff. THE PROBLEM IS, TOO MANY CLIMBERS JUST DON'T HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT DISCRETE BOLTING IS ALL ABOUT. Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best? Nope...won't concede...its a continuum...you said 90%...general population this is true...90% of climbers, not true... Quote
joe_average Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 scott_harpell said: why do we have to climb every climb? Cuz it's fun? it is the reward for getting strong and working hard at climbing and getting a good 'head' for leading spicy routes for the elite to be able to climb these sketchy routes. i dont think every route need to be climbed by 100% of climbers. After all, every Dick, Tom, and Scott can climb Realization. i think it is great that there are come climbs that 95% of the population wouldn't even try. See above. Oh, how about the Salathe? it mystifies the accomplishments of those who have made the sacrifice, dedication and the effort to climb something soo hard and bold. it is in a word inspiring. Don't get touchy-feely on us now. Consider that others are inspired by other accomplishments. Chief, um, Scott, if you were arguing against bolts because they reduce the aesthetic appeal of crags, you'd have a point. But as you're not, you don't. Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best? Nope...won't concede...its a continuum...you said 90%...general population this is true...90% of climbers, not true... but we are talking about the general population. we do not own crags just because we are uber-cool climbers. NO! we are users just like anyother user. our climbing gives us no priviledge except the one we make by busting our ass and climbing cool shit. being a climber dont mean shit. Quote
mattp Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 Sorry to offend you, Mr. Pope. Notwithstanding whether or not you made a "mistake," my point still stands: nobody around here is perfect. Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: RuMR said: scott_harpell said: A bunch of the lines that they've done they DID W/O THE BOLTS first, then went back and protected them for others...Why can't you get that?? so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best? Nope...won't concede...its a continuum...you said 90%...general population this is true...90% of climbers, not true... but we are talking about the general population. we do not own crags just because we are uber-cool climbers. NO! we are users just like anyother user. our climbing gives us no priviledge except the one we make by busting our ass and climbing cool shit. being a climber dont mean shit. But we are entitled to our fair share of the resources available...Smith Rocks State Park has a longstanding cooperative relationship w/ climbers...the town of Rifle caters to climbers as does Ouray to ice climbers (closest to sport that ice can get)...NRG is very close w/ climbers... We have a right to the resources just like any other user group... Paint the bolts and only the climbers will know they are there... Quote
pope Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 mattp said: Asside from the question of who is more arrogant, I think bolt chopping should be viewed with the same criteria that I listed above for thinking about installing bolts. 1. Safety. Is the chopping of a line going to created a safety hazard for one who may be expecting the bolts to be there? 2. Aesthetic Concerns. Can you do a clean job of removing the bolts? If you remove them, will somebody else come along and add them back in - creating more of a mess? Or will somebody drape slings on a bush or flake because you removed the chain rappel station? 3. Adventure/challenge. Is the removal of the bolts going to promote a sense of adventure or increase the challenge asociated with a particular crag? Will removal of the bolts merely deny climbers a route, or will it encourage them to climb with better style or to push past the missing placement anyway? 4. Associated Environmental Impacts. Aside from the aesthetic concerns noted above, will the removal of the bolts do anything to reduce crowds, erosion, the destruction of nesting habitat, etc.? Will it result in more aggressive crack cleaning? 5. Public Relations. Is the removal of a bolt or route going to stir up animosity? Is a potential bolt war going to have any possibility of requiring land managers or other officials' involvment? As with the discussion of installing bolts, any discussion of removing them must recognize that there are a lot of tradeoffs here, and a lot of different climbing styles, and I think ChucK's prior point that the people engaged in these activities need to maintain some measure of humility is a good one. If you appoint yourself as the rock police, a BIG dosage of humility should come into play, in my view. I think you should add to your considerations: 6. Will the decision to not chop this route signal bolt enthusiasts that it is open season on this once traditional crag? 7. Will the fear of starting a bolt war ultimately result in sport climbers bolting anything and everything they can find? Quote
RuMR Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 mattp said: Sorry to offend you, Mr. Pope. Notwithstanding whether or not you made a "mistake," my point still stands: nobody around here is perfect. Squaw TalkaLottaShitt is!!! Quote
joe_average Posted November 18, 2003 Posted November 18, 2003 I'm getting completely confused by this Pope guy. Now it's OK to have a nice bolt if there's death potential on a route without it. Cool. And a bolt is legitimate if and only if it's be put up on lead. But how is the ground-up bolt different from the rap bolt? It's the same goddamn piece of steel! And on most sport routes it would be socially responsible to bolt them, because without bolts they'd have groundfall potential! But that's not OK. I want to go skiing. Then I only have to argue about gear. Quote
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