debate fodder: lots of new climbers

[lummox]

from the LA Times: 'Over the last five years, the number of Americans scaling cliff walls and slopes has increased 60% to 16.7 million, according to the Outdoor Industry Assn.'

 

no wonder i cant find an empty campsite.

 

[catbirdseat]

Does that figure of 60% really mean people who get outside or are they mostly gym rats?

[lummox]

catbirdseat said:

Does that figure of 60% really mean people who get outside or are they mostly gym rats?

dude. like i know where the outdoor industry association gets its numbers.

i have met a handful of people this past year though who said they were climbers but dint even own shoes or harness. wtf?

[Figger_Eight]

No shit. If you go and climb the REI pinnacle...you're a climber right?

[chelle]

lummox said:

catbirdseat said:

Does that figure of 60% really mean people who get outside or are they mostly gym rats?

dude. like i know where the outdoor industry association gets its numbers.

i have met a handful of people this past year though who said they were climbers but dint even own shoes or harness. wtf?

 

You can rent those at the gym. I read about it in the latest issue of Indoor Climber.

[erik]

who really cares.....no climber can make a negative remark towards the fact.....as we all part of the sport. no one is better then anyone else and we all make an impact and we all have stock in all access issues and user fees etc.....

 

 

[RuMR]

erik said:

who really cares.....no climber can make a negative remark towards the fact.....as we all part of the sport. no one is better then anyone else and we all make an impact and we all have stock in all access issues and user fees etc.....

 

 

 

Yeah...screw that surf-nazi my beach crap...

[Ursa_Eagle]

I just want to watch out for the people who go out and trash the environment.

[erik]

Ursa_Eagle said:

I just want to watch out for the people who go out and trash the environment.

 

you can easily do that without attempting to generalize or put people into groups. especially since if one climber ruins the enviroment all climbers do.

 

 

[scott_harpell]

erik said:

Ursa_Eagle said:

I just want to watch out for the people who go out and trash the environment.

 

you can easily do that without attempting to generalize or put people into groups. especially since if one climber ruins the enviroment all climbers do.

 

 

i have seen your "hardmen" leaving trash and shit at index and my gumby ass took it out. so

[mattp]

Most of the new climbers I meet are pretty cool, and I have no problem with the fact that there are more climbers today than there were thirty years ago. The larger market means that the gear has come a long way, and the with the media attention and crowds, we are seeing some real cool parks like Smith that are being run like Disneyland for climbers. The increased athleticism that has been brought about by gym climbing, too, has led me to think more seriously about training and technique, and this has helped me enjoy the sport (though I mostly think about training but don't do it). Yes, it is not all good and I share some of the sense of loss about the old days when Smith was relatively pristine and there were only a dozen bolts on the entire Salathe Wall - but I'll take the good with the bad.

[Figger_Eight]

especially since if one climber ruins the enviroment all climbers do.

 

Yup...and that's why I separate myself from the idiots who say they are "climbers" but toss their empty gatorade bottles in the rocks at the lower gorge.

[bunglehead]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Matt and Erik on this.

On the one hand, it does suck to see your favorite areas become theme parks (Eldo, Smith) with long lines and bolts everywhere (not so much in Eldo with the bolts), but at the same time, it's hard to bitch because the popularity overall has been healthy for the sport, i.e. cheaper better gear, amazing progress, etc..

 

Total double edged sword kind of thing.

[lummox]

I CANT FIND AN EMPTY CAMPSITE!

[sk]

erik said:

Ursa_Eagle said:

I just want to watch out for the people who go out and trash the environment.

 

you can easily do that without attempting to generalize or put people into groups. especially since if one climber ruins the enviroment all climbers do.

 

I hate it when erik is right

[Thinker]

lummox said:

from the LA Times: 'Over the last five years, the number of Americans scaling cliff walls and slopes has increased 60% to 16.7 million, according to the Outdoor Industry Assn.'

 

no wonder i cant find an empty campsite.

 

ANAM 2003 has some statistics in the introduction where they provide the high end and low end estimates of climber numbers based on several sources. I don't have it at work with me, but I'm sure someone has it at their fingertips.

[cluck]

A 60% increase in "the number of Americans scaling cliff walls and slopes" doesn't exactly equate to a 60% increase in the number of climbers out on a given day. I'd venture to guess that many of that 60% increase are folks who only hit the crag a couple of times a year.

[chelle]

From the editors of NAMIM:

"...the Outdoor Industry Association has put forward an estimated count of persons 16 years or older who have "climbed at least once with a rope and harness on natural rock surface" at six million. They put the number of "enthusiasts" - those who engage in this activity at least ten times a year - at 1.3 million. While they claim statistical reliability with the instrument they used, I find this number to defy what land managers, other climbers, and local knowledge tell me. I still stand by a number of 250-300,000. But the good news is that if the number IS 1.3 millions, we are seeing a very low accident and fatality rate."

[lummox]

how many times ya gotta climb in a year to be a 'fanatic'?

[Thinker]

THAT'S what I'm talkin' bout....thanks Ehemic.

[Necronomicon]

erik said:

who really cares.....no climber can make a negative remark towards the fact.....as we all part of the sport. no one is better then anyone else and we all make an impact and we all have stock in all access issues and user fees etc.....

 

 

This is bullshit. I am much better than you.

[erik]

Necronomicon said:

erik said:

who really cares.....no climber can make a negative remark towards the fact.....as we all part of the sport. no one is better then anyone else and we all make an impact and we all have stock in all access issues and user fees etc.....

 

 

This is bullshit. I am much better than you.

 

if we are talking about backpacking with layton ot talking your gear out for a hike then yes i am quite sure you are better then me!

 

[Ursa_Eagle]

erik said:

Ursa_Eagle said:

I just want to watch out for the people who go out and trash the environment.

 

you can easily do that without attempting to generalize or put people into groups. especially since if one climber ruins the enviroment all climbers do.

 

 

I never said that all new climbers screw the environment. I'm probably also a little bitter after going caving in some popular caves recently (and here I'm guilty of lumping non-enthusiasts into one group.)

[pope]

bunglehead said:

.....because the popularity overall has been healthy for the sport, i.e. cheaper better gear, amazing progress, etc..

 

I have difficulty pointing out how greater numbers of climbers has been good for the sport, outside of improved gear (which may have happened regardless).

 

Greater numbers of climbers have brought us:

 

1. Crowds (by definition) and all of the problems associated therewith.

 

2. A new attitude about wilderness experiences, in which it is acceptable (even desirable) to "enhance" the wilderness to our liking. Bolts, chipped holds, epoxy, quickdraws hanging in place, etc. Really unfortunate stuff.

 

3. Dubious mountaineering goals for the average participant, in which we focus on small, attainable goals which allow us to operate in a controlled environment. Thus, the ultimate goal for the winter season is climbing a bolt ladder with your crampons on, and the ultimate goal for the summer is pulling a 3-move V7 problem and buying a new bouldering pad.

 

4. Fees, permits, fees and permits. These were completely unnecessary in the days when climbing was a rough and tumble game practiced by the lunatic fringe.

 

5. Guided trips on the big E and elsewhere, in which discretionary income, rather than a solid climbing resume, makes you an expeditionary candidate .

[catbirdseat]

Let's hear it for the Lunatic Fringe!