Good Government

[incubus]

j-b tool, I believe you have me confused with trask. I realize you're unemployed and love sitting around in your panties typing vile spewage, but please leave me out of your rants. Incidentally, hard drugs are bad for you and your children...lay off.

 

A concerned samaritan

[erik]

i think you all should shut the fuck up.

instead of personal insults, insult their theories and ideas. insulting people makes you look like the asshole and your opinion as well.

 

thanks!

 

[Sphinx]

erik said:

i think you all should shut the fuck up.

instead of personal insults, insult their theories and ideas. insulting people makes you look like the asshole and your opinion as well.

 

thanks!

I'm insulted by your use of profanity. Totally uncalled for.

[scrambler]

Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said:

scrambler said:

Greg_W said:

rbw1966 said:

I read him as saying the kid was the problem, not the gun.

 

I would say the parent was the problem. THe gun is the owner's responsibility; i.e., the parent.

 

My ol' man was career military. Thus, my brother and I grew up with guns, shooting at beer bottles in the water and hunting. I would have never thought of bringing a gun to school because there was the fear instilled in us by the ol'man. You see, he used to leave his coiled belt in the same closet where the rifles and ammo were. A visible reminder. So, yeah... I gotta agree with ya, Greg.

 

Maybe we gotta point at a more elusive culprit, the loss of time to spend with kids to teach them or the lack of foresight on the part of parents or... However, I do think that access to guns has increased dramatically over time and that is part of the problem. Now, the knee-jerk reaction is to limit accessibility, which I don't necessarily accept.

when I was a child all the guns in my home were on a gun rack next to the front door. It was never an issue.

 

Do ya think that maybe there are substandard people? And that, we should raise the bar a bit in permitting people privileges such as driving? And maybe, the same reasoning could be applied albeit to rights granted by government in return for your willingness to be governed?

[Dru]

get a room you 3

[incubus]

yeah, I'm with Drew, you guys are HEAVY

[E-rock]

God, is every thread on this board about the same thing right now?

[Greg_W]

scrambler said:

Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said:

scrambler said:

Greg_W said:

rbw1966 said:

I read him as saying the kid was the problem, not the gun.

 

I would say the parent was the problem. THe gun is the owner's responsibility; i.e., the parent.

 

My ol' man was career military. Thus, my brother and I grew up with guns, shooting at beer bottles in the water and hunting. I would have never thought of bringing a gun to school because there was the fear instilled in us by the ol'man. You see, he used to leave his coiled belt in the same closet where the rifles and ammo were. A visible reminder. So, yeah... I gotta agree with ya, Greg.

 

Maybe we gotta point at a more elusive culprit, the loss of time to spend with kids to teach them or the lack of foresight on the part of parents or... However, I do think that access to guns has increased dramatically over time and that is part of the problem. Now, the knee-jerk reaction is to limit accessibility, which I don't necessarily accept.

when I was a child all the guns in my home were on a gun rack next to the front door. It was never an issue.

 

Do ya think that maybe there are substandard people? And that, we should raise the bar a bit in permitting people privileges such as driving? And maybe, the same reasoning could be applied albeit to rights granted by government in return for your willingness to be governed?

 

DING DING!!! We have a winner!! Thanks for letting your true belief shine through. DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE, AS YOU SAY IN YOUR POST, THAT RIGHTS ARE GRANTED BY THE GOVERNMENT ??? This belief is the FUNDAMENTAL problem. No government "grants" you rights, man. Who gave rights to those before there was a government?

 

Second, "we should raise the bar a bit permitting people priveleges such as driving"? Man, I'd hate to live your life; hoping someone "gives" you the right to do things. So, you're saying that we should bring the intelligent responsible people down to the level of the stupid and irresponsible? Hmm...that's essentially the Communist Ideal, there.

 

I was born with my rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (as noted in the Declaration of Independence), and noone can take them away. I intend to fight to keep those rights, including my right to decide how I protect myself and those I love...not to mention the right to speak my mind (or did the government grant me that, too), associate with those groups I so choose, and deny government thugs entry to my house without proper justification.

[RuMR]

Greg...you crack me up...

 

He's equating owning a gun to the PRIVILEGE (not RIGHT) of driving. Not everyone should be entitled to privileges...everyone is entitled to rights...

 

That being said, i see no reason why it is our right to own guns despite your soon to be launched "Right to bear arms"...there is more than enough supporting historical documentation out there to maintain a stance that the right to bear arms was to maintain a militia...not self defence...it was cuz our country was to flatout broke to maintain a standing army...

 

I don't want the stupid gangbanging fux out there armed...you should have to meet certain requirements, register the gun and be held accountable for it...it is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.

[j_b]

incubus said:

j-b tool, I believe you have me confused with trask. I realize you're unemployed and love sitting around in your panties typing vile spewage, but please leave me out of your rants. Incidentally, hard drugs are bad for you and your children...lay off.

 

A concerned samaritan

 

it is often said that people view the world and others according to the image they have of themselves.

[erik]

Sphinx said:

erik said:

i think you all should shut the fuck up.

instead of personal insults, insult their theories and ideas. insulting people makes you look like the asshole and your opinion as well.

 

thanks!

I'm insulted by your use of profanity. Totally uncalled for.

 

[Sphinx]

First erik said:

MY FUCKING PROBLEM IS SO MANY OF YOU PEOPLE ARE COMPLETE FUCKING INCONSIDERATE ASSHOLES. ATTEMPTING TO POSE YOUR FUCKING RETARDED BRAND OF HUMOR ON FUCKING EVERYTHING. YOU ALL REMIND ME OF MALE DOGS, SPRAYING THEIR SCENT EVERYWHERE TO INCREAS THEIR TERRITORY. WELL I AM SICK OF IT AND I DONT GIVE A FUCK ANYMORE.

 

TRASK YOU RUIN MORE FUCKING TOPICS THEN ANYONE ELSE EVEN POSTS, DRUL YOU TOO. YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO BE RIGHT, YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO INTERJECT A FUCKING COMMENT ON EVER FUCKING TOPIC.

 

SO FUCK OFF AND YOU ALL KNOW WHO I AM TALKING ABOUT

 

EVERYONE MAYBE I WILL SEE YOU OUT CLIMBING.

 

NOW erik sez:

Sphinx said:

erik said:

i think you all should shut the fuck up.

instead of personal insults, insult their theories and ideas. insulting people makes you look like the asshole and your opinion as well.

 

thanks!

I'm insulted by your use of profanity. Totally uncalled for.

 

 

But BIG BAD SPHINX sez:

[scrambler]

DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE, AS YOU SAY IN YOUR POST, THAT RIGHTS ARE GRANTED BY THE GOVERNMENT ??? This belief is the FUNDAMENTAL problem. No government "grants" you rights, man. Who gave rights to those before there was a government?

 

That's an idea I've entertained. Makes as much or more so, sense than to say that these are God-given rights. In the history of Man, we had to fight for these rights and to forge a government and its guiding document. The established orthodoxy of religion sure didn't give these rights to us. The Church would have been all to glad to keep us under its thumb. Reform does not usually come from institutions (which BTW tend to be conservative). Now, as for God-given, well that makes as much sense to me as the phrase, "All men were created equal." I wasn't privileged to have an expensive private school education so maybe I'm missing something here in my interpretation of the world around us. These ideas: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness are abstractions. Government is the vehicle that imposes the order or stability on our world to realise the concrete reality of these abstractions, in other words, to make them manifest. It does worry me, to see that the opposite is becoming the case because the ruling elite is afraid of losing control. So, maybe I had a moment of lucidity in an otherwise murky existence...

 

Second, "we should raise the bar a bit permitting people priveleges such as driving"? Man, I'd hate to live your life; hoping someone "gives" you the right to do things. So, you're saying that we should bring the intelligent responsible people down to the level of the stupid and irresponsible? Hmm...that's essentially the Communist Ideal, there

 

Simply a misunderstanding... Playing the devil's advocate.

 

I was born with my rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (as noted in the Declaration of Independence), and noone can take them away. I intend to fight to keep those rights, including my right to decide how I protect myself and those I love...not to mention the right to speak my mind (or did the government grant me that, too), associate with those groups I so choose, and deny government thugs entry to my house without proper justification.

 

Conviction... So you're saying that this is the basis of our rights? ...our individual convictions?

[Greg_W]

RuMR said:

Greg...you crack me up...

 

He's equating owning a gun to the PRIVILEGE (not RIGHT) of driving. Not everyone should be entitled to privileges...everyone is entitled to rights...

 

That being said, i see no reason why it is our right to own guns despite your soon to be launched "Right to bear arms"...there is more than enough supporting historical documentation out there to maintain a stance that the right to bear arms was to maintain a militia...not self defence...it was cuz our country was to flatout broke to maintain a standing army...

 

I don't want the stupid gangbanging fux out there armed...you should have to meet certain requirements, register the gun and be held accountable for it...it is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.

 

So, are you saying that it is a privilege to decide HOW I can defend my self? There are ways I CAN defend myself and ways I CAN'T defend myself?

 

Okay, Rudy, in simple, but harsh terms: Someone enters your house and threatens you (or your wife) with a knife. What privileges do you have to defend yourself with? Wouldn't you want to be able to decide, free from government intervention into your private life (which is what it is) on how best to protect your family? Who knows better how to protect your wife and darling son? You? The BATFE?

 

Regarding your "historical documentation" about the meaning of the Second Amendment, you are flat wrong. There is an abundence of work done showing that the Second Amendment supports the INDIVIDUAL'S right, just like all the other Amendments in the Bill or Rights. Don't state your opinions as facts, it's misleading.

[incubus]

j_b said:

incubus said:

j-b tool, I believe you have me confused with trask. I realize you're unemployed and love sitting around in your panties typing vile spewage, but please leave me out of your rants. Incidentally, hard drugs are bad for you and your children...lay off.

 

A concerned samaritan

 

it is often said that people view the world and others according to the image they have of themselves.

Sir, or Sirette (what the hell ever you are): Why do you persist in bothering me on this bbs? Please refrain from your nasty PM's and continual badgering. It's not funny and you'll force me to report you to the good moderators of this site. Now make like a fly, and shoooo

[j_b]

Greg_W said:Who knows better how to protect your wife and darling son?

 

it has been shown ever and over that the best to protect yourself and your family is to not have a gun in your home. the same way that wearing a seat belt while driving is shown to be necessary, or wearing a helmet while biking and climbing, etc ... the only difference whith these other examples is that your insistence to have the proliferation of guns go unchecked actually endangers my life and that of my family

[Sphinx]

j_b said:

Greg_W said:Who knows better how to protect your wife and darling son?

 

it has been shown ever and over that the best to protect yourself and your family is to not have a gun in your home.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

[RuMR]

Yes, Greg i'm saying it is a privilege to defend yourself w/ a gun...keep your nose clean legally, so you don't lose the privilege of defending yourself/family w/ a gun...otherwise it'll have to be w/ a baseball bat. A convicted felon never loses his right to free speech. he is free to send letters to the press, blah blah blah...he does however lose his privilege of gun ownership...

 

another example: if you are mentally unstable, you shouldn't be armed.

 

and i can point you to just as many interpretations that show that clause to enable the young country to maintain a defense. This is the 21st century.

[incubus]

Hey Greg, did I just read a couple of posts back what I think I just read? That dude's out there.

[RuMR]

and greg...i said "maintain a stance"...that implies an opinion, not a fact. So don't label me as misleading...

 

None of us were in that room of in the authors' heads at the time...

[Dru]

Greg_W said:

Okay, Rudy, in simple, but harsh terms: Someone enters your house and threatens you (or your wife) with a knife. What privileges do you have to defend yourself with?

 

Greg you got your threads mixed up. This one goes in the FEAR thread.

[RuMR]

incubus said:

Hey Greg, did I just read a couple of posts back what I think I just read? That dude's out there.

 

Then he shouldn't be armed!!!!

[Greg_W]

scrambler said:

DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE, AS YOU SAY IN YOUR POST, THAT RIGHTS ARE GRANTED BY THE GOVERNMENT ??? This belief is the FUNDAMENTAL problem. No government "grants" you rights, man. Who gave rights to those before there was a government?

 

That's an idea I've entertained. Makes as much or more so, sense than to say that these are God-given rights. In the history of Man, we had to fight for these rights and to forge a government and its guiding document. The established orthodoxy of religion sure didn't give these rights to us. The Church would have been all to glad to keep us under its thumb. Reform does not usually come from institutions (which BTW tend to be conservative). Now, as for God-given, well that makes as much sense to me as the phrase, "All men were created equal." I wasn't privileged to have an expensive private school education so maybe I'm missing something here in my interpretation of the world around us. These ideas: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness are abstractions. Government is the vehicle that imposes the order or stability on our world to realise the concrete reality of these abstractions, in other words, to make them manifest. It does worry me, to see that the opposite is becoming the case because the ruling elite is afraid of losing control. So, maybe I had a moment of lucidity in an otherwise murky existence...

 

Second, "we should raise the bar a bit permitting people priveleges such as driving"? Man, I'd hate to live your life; hoping someone "gives" you the right to do things. So, you're saying that we should bring the intelligent responsible people down to the level of the stupid and irresponsible? Hmm...that's essentially the Communist Ideal, there

 

Simply a misunderstanding... Playing the devil's advocate.

 

I was born with my rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (as noted in the Declaration of Independence), and noone can take them away. I intend to fight to keep those rights, including my right to decide how I protect myself and those I love...not to mention the right to speak my mind (or did the government grant me that, too), associate with those groups I so choose, and deny government thugs entry to my house without proper justification.

 

Conviction... So you're saying that this is the basis of our rights? ...our individual convictions?

 

If you believe that a government gave you your rights, you have to believe that that same government can take them away. You can't have one without the other - and you have to accept that as your lot. I do not. I personally believe in God, and believe (as our Forefathers did) that these rights are God-given. That's my personal conviction, it doesn't have to be yours. You seem to be relying on Government quite a bit for your reality; by accepting that, you accept that government has the right to change your reality. The inalienable rights, both enumerated and not, guaranteed by the Constitution are not abstractions, you practice them every day. Note the language of the Constitution in that is says these rights are "guaranteed", not granted.

 

You say that institutions are largely conservative, but I would have you look at where this "ruling elite" you talk about comes from. Where did the Political Correctness movement start? College campuses with liberal professors inculcating their students. Is Berkeley a conservative institution? Conservative institutions such as the Citadel, and VMI, and others, have been under attack for their convictions.

 

Taking God out of the argument for a moment, the basis for your rights is the fact that you EXIST. You exist, you are conscious of it, and have knowledge of it. You cannot have knowledge without being conscious, and you cannot have consciousness without existing. Therefore, this logically tells us that EXISTENCE is primary. Your existence is by what you claim these rights.

[RuMR]

Dru said:

Greg_W said:

Okay, Rudy, in simple, but harsh terms: Someone enters your house and threatens you (or your wife) with a knife. What privileges do you have to defend yourself with?

 

Greg you got your threads mixed up. This one goes in the FEAR thread.

 

Dru...buzz off...this is the USA down here...you canadians don't know squat bout owning guns...tallyhoo...

[Jim]

Hmmm. Seems to be going the same way as the fear thread. So why are Americans so friking scared of anyway that they go in droves to buy handguns for "home protection". I don't get the fear thing.