Matp, Pope I'll start it off!

[DCramer]

I was a bit frustrated today when I open the cc.com page. The same old goddamn nonesense!

 

The sad thing is that access is a concern for all of us. The first question is has the mudracker's behavior helped their cause? The answer is it hasn't. Some examples since they started posting:

 

· Route production in the Icicle continues unabated.

 

· A new sport area consisting of 50-60 new routes has been developed.

 

· At Index a new route variation was bolted a section of rock that had already been climbed free onsite with nuts years earlier.

 

· At Darrington many new routes have been installed.

 

· At 38 scores of new routes have been created

 

The second question is can bolting get out of control? Certainly. Should we care? Of course. Are the items in the above list good or bad? Both? Clearly it depends on who is doing the evaluating. I happen to think it's a mixed bag.

 

I think most people putting up new routes are pretty good guys and would welcome constructive feedback. Over the past several years I have been in many arguments with people about bolting most of the time I was on the anti-bolting position. To the extent that this site was filled with "bolters are pussies" types of comments it was impossible to appeal to.

 

If Jon and Timmy wish to have this site be a place of genuine discussion they will need to moderate with a much heavier hand. If those who argue against bolting want to be heard and have a real impact, they need to be honest and willing to compromise. This site's potential for both benefit and harm is too great to allow the nonsense to continue.

 

[JayB]

Word. I think that Peter Puget and other mods might would be willing to apply the aforementioned heavy hand in "THE NEW ROCKCLIMBING FORUM" so that there will be at least one area in which constructive dialogues can take place amongst folks with diverging viewpoints while the usual stuff goes on elsewhere.

 

Hell, make me a mod and I will be happy to lend a hand to the moderation efforts in that forum.

[Greg_W]

I agree with JayB. Serious discussion regarding bolting SHOULD take place here in this forum and include serious discussion only. It IS an issue, and it is not going to go away.

 

Greg_W

[mattp]

Every single time I have called for civility in a bolting debate on this bulletin board, the anti-bolt folks have said I was trying to prevent them from expressing their points of view. Might we precede any attempt to address the substantive issues with some discussion of what might be the ground rules for such a discussion?

[Cpt.Caveman]

Greg_W said:

I agree with JayB. Serious discussion regarding bolting SHOULD take place here in this forum and include serious discussion only. It IS an issue, and it is not going to go away.

 

Greg_W

 

I am now declaring myself king of all bolting. That means the bolt wars go away.

 

Here's some bolts we need-

 

Nowhere

 

Here's some bolts worth ripping out and putting in a museum-

 

Beckey Bolt on Slesse ( I tried )

[JayB]

It should be possible to limit the discussion of specific bolts/routes the the pro's and cons of the specific bolts/routes in question.

 

If someone finds an sport-bolted clip up in an area with a longstanding trad ethic, and they are an adult, they should be able to limit their commentary to something along the lines of "I found such and such a line bolted at such and such a crag. This line is completely inconsistent with the ethic that has prevailed at this area for 40 years, impinges upon such and such a naturally protected line, and should therefore be removed." or "I recognize the line is inconsistent with the local ethics but it should be left alone for the following reasons, etc, etc."

 

If someone wants to participate by posting something along the lines of "Some worthless piece of shit pussy put some (*&^ing bolts up and such and such a crag and I going to rip their head off and shit down their dickless throats if I find out who it is.." they should feel free to do so in Spray.

 

FWIW, I think that the recent discussions concerning the bolts in Oregon at Flagstone and elsewhere have been pretty civil, despite the wildly divergent viewpoints expressed within them. Should be possible to achieve here with appropriate moderation.

 

I think that what goes for crags could also go for forums. Some forums have been and should be a free-for-all, while others might actually evolve a more restrained ethic if the right precedent is established and enforced.

[DCramer]

Jayb

I disagree. At least at first I see more benefit coming from a more general discussion. Setting up boundries so to speak. Describing a single route unknown to many seems a bit like we are dooming this thread to instant death. Of course after saying that I feel that I must to say free to bring up one of my routes so this comment doesnt seem too self serving.

 

If successful this forum might guide future actions! The past is less relevent at least to me.

[DCramer]

Mattp - I think we all should know how to behave in a civil manner. There in fact two isues related to bolting. The first is bolting itself. The second is climbers' behavior debating bolting. Often the latter has a greater negative impact to the sport.

 

 

[JayB]

Good point. What I really meant to say, but did so quite poorly, was that dialogues that focus on concrete matters - whatever they may be- would probably be more constructive, be they about bolts, routes, access, future crag development, etc, etc, etc.

 

Inasmuch as people want to get into entirely philosophical discussions about bolting, those have their place, but if they might require both heavier moderation and a greater commitment to civility than discussions centered on concrete topics.

 

Speaking of concrete topics, anyone know what the deal is with the bolted route(s) on Garfield?

[DCramer]

Jayb - is that really an appropriate topic for this thread?

[JayB]

Probably not, but it might be a good one for another thread in THE NEW ROCK CLIMBING FORUM at some point.....

[ScottP]

A point to consider is that any moderating should be done with consideration for the poster being moderated. Diplomatically explaining to them (via a PM) why their post isn't appropriate and is, therefore, being removed would probably go a long way toward maintaining civility as opposed to just jerking the post without. (When appropriate, go so far as to give them the opprotunity to edit before removal?)

Stepping on fragile egos breeds malcontent (as if that needed to be said.)

I imagine that perhaps this is already being done by some moderators.

[lancegranite]

it's nice to see that thoughtful ideas can be expressed

in a netural space.

bolts are a fact of life. no matter what we tell our selves,

man cannot help but shape the enviromert to his liking.

the conflict occurs when we feel the sting of guilt,however small,that something was lost in the act.

we all share the legacy of climbing.

it has brought us all together,distant and close cousins,

to be part of something greater. we represent many branches of the same tree. funny,i imagine the older limbs complaning that the sky used to be brighter in the old days,while the new growth fills it's days reaching for the sun,oblivious to it all.

 

[pope]

DCramer said:

I was a bit frustrated today when I open the cc.com page. The same old goddamn nonesense!

 

The sad thing is that access is a concern for all of us. The first question is has the mudracker's behavior helped their cause? The answer is it hasn't. Some examples since they started posting:

 

· Route production in the Icicle continues unabated.

 

· A new sport area consisting of 50-60 new routes has been developed.

 

· At Index a new route variation was bolted a section of rock that had already been climbed free onsite with nuts years earlier.

 

· At Darrington many new routes have been installed.

 

· At 38 scores of new routes have been created

 

The second question is can bolting get out of control? Certainly. Should we care? Of course. Are the items in the above list good or bad? Both? Clearly it depends on who is doing the evaluating. I happen to think it's a mixed bag.

 

I think most people putting up new routes are pretty good guys and would welcome constructive feedback. Over the past several years I have been in many arguments with people about bolting most of the time I was on the anti-bolting position. To the extent that this site was filled with "bolters are pussies" types of comments it was impossible to appeal to.

 

If Jon and Timmy wish to have this site be a place of genuine discussion they will need to moderate with a much heavier hand. If those who argue against bolting want to be heard and have a real impact, they need to be honest and willing to compromise. This site's potential for both benefit and harm is too great to allow the nonsense to continue.

 

And the third question must certainly be, "What the hell is a mudracker?" I don't see the potential for a handful of climbers who participate in these electronic discussions to come to any kind of consensus, and the notion that their discussions will in some way impact the broader spectrum of Washington climbers seems dubious. So far, what we're hearing from you (that this site has potential and that uncivil discourse has a negative impact on climbing and access )also sounds like a broken record, as do your admonishments to the anti-bolt side to "knock off the nonsense." Some of the most vile and threatening language we've heard has come from bolting advocates (as Figger8 points out) and it's been this way since the first discussion.

 

Let's just take one viewpoint that at first sounds like it might be common to many of us: no bolting next to cracks. Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements. As weak as I think the sport-climbers' approach to ascending cliffs like Exit 38 is, I have an even greater problem with what amounts to bolting cracks at Index. We don't even have a grip on this problem, so how are we ever going to retard the pace of sport routes on blank/crackless walls?

 

I know it sounds gloomy, but I think bolt infestation is here to stay and to grow. The notion that rap-bolting is an acceptable means of route establishment, the recognition that comes from "pioneering" such routes and seeing your name in the guidebook, the simplicity with which one can scrub and drill on rap.....and finally, the sort of democratic nature of this practice, whereby anybody with a drill and fresh batteries can let their energies go crazy......all of these aspects of modern climbing suggest to me that bolting is like a machine, like a disease which can't be remedied.

 

All I can do is climb in good style, be a good example to younger climbers, and try to protect cliffs like Castle Rock from today's insanity.

 

While you may be annoyed about the way Dwayner ridicules sport climbers, you must admit that your list of transgressions would exist regardless of Dwayner's electronic opinions. That is all they amount to and you're welcome to ignore them. You probably won't catch me insulting sport climbers on this site. I don't have the time.

 

Having said all of this, I'm eager to hear some of this civil and serious discussion.

[cracked]

Poper, what the hell are you talking about? I haven't placed a bolt in my life, most sport climbers can say the same. Overbolting, bolts next to cracks, etc, usually are perpetrated by a select handful of jackasses who, not unlike yourself, have a fanatical view of climbing. You blame the invisible hordes of 'sport climbers'. I'll let you in on a secret, buddy. Sport climbers, especially your version of them, sport climb because it's simple and convenient. Now, bolting a new route is neither, so your average Joe Sportclimber doesn't bolt new routes. Quit generalizing. Fuck, I am a sport climber, and am still a gym climber, and the only inpact I've had on the cliffs is chalk and shoe rubber. Remember, THERE ARE VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS WHO CREATE THE ROUTES THAT YOU TAKE OFFENSE TO. Sure, there are many who climb them. But you should focus on people like Dave and Dee Tvedt, who mindlessly bolt any rock that catches their eye. Take a look at the 'hydrotube' thread.

 

You say that anybody can grab a drill and start bolting. True, but not many people do. You really think that a sport climber would aid 50 feet of Index granite, sink a bolt, then continue? Hell no, it was done by someone who does a bunch of trad climbing and is a jackass.

 

I support removal of bolted cracks, selected removal of bolts on overbolted sport routes, bolts on a route previously led on trad gear, and bolts that are just stupid.

 

You make it sound like bolting is a 'plague', that everyone and their grandma runs out a buys a drill, and rock dust starts flying. It doesn't work like that. Hello?

 

BTW, Pope, I'm 17. I started climbing in a gym. I moved outside, to sport routes . I have a good grasp on ethics. I would even strongly support chopping certain routes. I still feel that sport climbing, soulless as it may be, can be fun, challenging, and it would be a waste not to have that option. Without sport climbing, Smith would not be know for climbing. It's a choss heap unless you rap down, and clean the routes. Places like American Fork might be an ethical heap by now, but nobody would have climbed there if it wasn't for sport climbing. I dream of hard alpine routes. I also dream of hard sport routes, but it's a different kind of dreaming. The folks who climb hard and post on this board, like Daylward, Michael_Layton, Colin, ForrestM, etc, are the ones who inspire me. Pretending that everyone who emerged from the chalky depths of the gym is an incarnation of the devil pisses me off. Gain some perspective.

[pope]

cracked said:

THERE ARE VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS WHO CREATE THE ROUTES THAT YOU TAKE OFFENSE TO. Sure, there are many who climb them.

 

Pope say: Only one pile of doo can attract thousands of flies.

 

I support removal of bolted cracks, selected removal of bolts on overbolted sport routes, bolts on a route previously led on trad gear, and bolts that are just stupid.

 

Pope suggest: Don't just support it, practice it!

 

You make it sound like bolting is a 'plague', that everyone and their grandma runs out a buys a drill, and rock dust starts flying. It doesn't work like that. Hello?

BTW, Pope, I'm 17.

 

Pope inquire: So how does it work , kid?

 

Without sport climbing, Smith would not be know for climbing. It's a choss heap unless you rap down, and clean the routes.

 

Pope respond: Horse crap. Smith had, prior to the bolt revolution, a number of quality routes and enthusiastic climbers. Now that it has a reputation and attracts large crowds, somehow this makes it better? Please explain.

 

Gain some perspective.

 

Pope comment: I've got a 17-year-old kid telling me to gain some perspective!

[Figger_Eight]

Without sport climbing, Smith would not be know for climbing.

 

Snicker...

[cracked]

pope said:

cracked said:

THERE ARE VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS WHO CREATE THE ROUTES THAT YOU TAKE OFFENSE TO. Sure, there are many who climb them.

 

Pope say: Only one pile of doo can attract thousands of flies.

 

I support removal of bolted cracks, selected removal of bolts on overbolted sport routes, bolts on a route previously led on trad gear, and bolts that are just stupid.

 

Pope suggest: Don't just support it, practice it!

 

You make it sound like bolting is a 'plague', that everyone and their grandma runs out a buys a drill, and rock dust starts flying. It doesn't work like that. Hello?

BTW, Pope, I'm 17.

 

Pope inquire: So how does it work , kid?

 

Without sport climbing, Smith would not be know for climbing. It's a choss heap unless you rap down, and clean the routes.

 

Pope respond: Horse crap. Smith had, prior to the bolt revolution, a number of quality routes and enthusiastic climbers. Now that it has a reputation and attracts large crowds, somehow this makes it better? Please explain.

 

Gain some perspective.

 

Pope comment: I've got a 17-year-old kid telling me to gain some perspective!

Look, Smith would never be a trad climbing destination. A few locals would climb there, but on the tuff at least, all the routes would quickly be climbed. So if a crag of choss doesn't get climbed on by you trad masters, how does it hurt to drill some holes and let other people enjoy the area? Doesn't change a thing as far as you're concerned.

 

So far, you've bitched about the people who bolt climbs. So why are you bitching about the people who climb those routes? What have they done that's so heinous, compared to your noble activities?

 

I tell you to gain perspective only because you've lost it. The younger generation isn't 'lost', so quit your whining.

 

Oh, nice mangling of my post, Pope. Good cheap trick to make you look like a jackass.

[Dru]

[allthumbs]

fuck off

[Dwayner]

I would like to add some commentary to cracked's response to pope.

 

Cracked: "Look, Smith would never be a trad climbing destination. A few locals would climb there, but on the tuff at least, all the routes would quickly be climbed."

 

Nonsense. I was climbing at Smith 15 years before you were even born and it was a great place with lots of fine and challenging routes visited by plenty of non-Oregonians. I remember when a certain local rock star began rap-bolting the place and it was extremely controversial.....turns out, it was part of the beginning of the sport-climbing phenom. which few would probably predict would take off with such abandon. If presented the choice, I would rather have NO climbers climb at Smith, trad or sport, if I had to choose between allowing the sport-bolting or leaving it relatively pristine. I could care less if any climber knows about Smith. This once somewhat quiet area now resembles a circus sideshow at the Dihedrals area on any decent weekend. Guess what the big attraction is?????? It ain't the cracks!

 

 

Cracked: "So if a crag of choss doesn't get climbed on by you trad masters, how does it hurt to drill some holes and let other people enjoy the area? Doesn't change a thing as far as you're concerned."

 

Smith Rocks is not "choss". Neither is/was Vantage. These are beautiful areas that have been desecrated by people for their own entertainment with little respect for its natural beauty or the notion that one should leave as little trace of one's visit as possible.

 

Cracked: "So far, you've bitched about the people who bolt climbs. So why are you bitching about the people who climb those routes? What have they done that's so heinous, compared to your noble activities?"

 

Climbing these routes endorses the practice.

 

Cracked"I tell you to gain perspective only because you've lost it. The younger generation isn't 'lost', so quit your whining."

 

You seem to speak about things on which you are not very well informed of the perspectives, but I am sure you are learning.

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2003 by Dwayner

[Dru]

[cracked]

Dwayner said:

 

Climbing these routes endorses the practice.

 

Thanks for the quick and condescending reply, Dwayner.

 

As for my 'endorsing' sport climbing, I would disagree. I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing here, after all, I'm young, so I must be brainwashed, misinformed, drug-addled, and not worthy of comment.

 

See ya, chumps!

[Sphinx]

Dru said:

[Dwayner]

"Thanks for the quick and condescending reply, Dwayner."

 

You're welcome! It seems that you were in need of a little history lesson plus some exposure to a perspective with which you might not have been familiar.

 

" I'm not going to waste anymore time arguing here, after all, I'm young, so I must be brainwashed, misinformed, drug-addled, and not worthy of comment."

 

Your words, not mine. That kind of attitude won't take you far but I assume you are just joking.

 

Good luck, dude!

 

- Dwayner