Lame...Cave is now down and out...forever

[Sphinx]

Dwayner said:

mattp said:

RuMR-

 

I agree - sort of. I have appreciated Dwayner's willingness to hang in there with his position, and I have at times also enjoyed his condescending insults about the pad people and the sport climbing cowards.

 

But I believe that, as exemplified in this threat, he often attempts to provoke people for absolutely no reason and he really has no point at all but, as Peter Puget has point out, to draw attention to himself. He is really trying to ruin an otherwise good discussion.

 

I agree that Dwayner is an asset on this site and that is why I said that I would like to ban him only temporarily so that he might be able to reflec on the matter and come back able to show some discretion as to where and when he should piss on an ongoing discussion.

 

 

MattP....absurd! I don't need your enforced time-out...it will change nothing. You want me banned because you find me "juvenile" (look at 80% of this site), etc.? Take it up with jon and timmy.

 

What don't you understand about the relationship between climbing area being closed with 400 bolts being removed....and the practice that contributes to the problem. Is it really a big mystery?

If it's access you're concerned about....you guys need to do the self-reflection to see how your behavior might contribute to "the Man's" suspicions. If you can convince the powers that those sport-climbs are legitimate....than do it. Although they might get a different side of the story from other of folks.

Wow, Dwayner, you are truly clueless.

[gapertimmy]

okay so back to the access discussion....

[glassgowkiss]

Dwayner said:

This issue Is NOT about bolting??????

Burning tires in caves is inappropriate....dumping your garbage in caves in inappropriate....leaving grafitti is inappropriate and so are FOUR HUNDRED BOLTS.

 

Many of you like to blame "THE MAN", but look how you behave. Some of you feel that it is O.K. to leave a string of permanent anchors anyplace you feel it might be entertaining. And look at how some of you people communicate with each other. (This topic is a fine example.) You want to be little "ain't we wacky", foul-mouthed social anarchists but few are going to pay attention because the people who make the decisions generally don't listen to this kind of spew. You bad-mouthed Beck because he's the one talking to "the MAN" and you don't feel that he might adequately represent your views (and which view??) What are you doing?

Climbers are the root cause of a lot of this closure business. Consider that possibility instead of attributing it all to beer-bottle breaking teenagers, etc. Where are the restraints? Not many and people are noticing.

 

And by the way.....I am by no means alone in my views. There are lots of us. Lucky I have other priorities or I might pursue my cause more vigorously.

 

And Petey....you claim that you understand my views, but you don't. I am not against all bolts, but I believe they should have VERY LIMITED application. In my view, any climb that is completely bolt-dependent is illegitimate. And I'm not interested in "debating" with you. I find you at least as boring as you find me.

 

Erik: The clean-climbing revolution of your buddy Y. Chouinard and friends was just that...a revolution...and tragically a somewhat failed one. It WILL come back because its message (whether it originated from the '70's, 3,000 B.C. or yesterday) was sound.....the state of rock climbing today, in my opinion, has not evolved...but DEVOLVED.

Winer, you're full of it. I don't know the count in Cave Rock NV, bot I can assure you there were no 400 bolts at caves in Cenral Oregon. Mind that Cave Rock was about half the size of Hidden Forest cave, so whare are your numbers from? Larry King during his so called "survey" was trying to prove that there were about 300 bolts- even FS officals loughed at that number. during the meetings a figure of roughly 150 was established. More - they all were placed on lead, ground up! They were logical lines, no grid bolting of some "might go" projects.

Now before you get you panties in a bunch I ask you a question. Have you ever climbed in any of these areas? if not you're out of your element.

Just one last comment. How come bolting is only an issue to the "sucky" low end climbers? How come people like Tackle, Swenson, Howse, Twight, Hubers accept things as they are and don't pull this judgmental shit on others? Since you never answered my question about YOUR climbing ability, I think you're just blowing smoke on this issue. remember words- action= zilch

Edited September 12, 2003 by glassgowkiss

[Sphinx]

words - action = 0

words - action +action = 0 + action

words + 0 = action

words = action

 

Wow! Cool!

[Dwayner]

Glassgow:

"Since you never answered my question about YOUR climbing ability, I think you're just blowing smoke on this issue. remember words- action= zilch "

 

I'm sure I don't climb as well as you, cowboy. I guess you win!

[Figger_Eight]

I personally don't like dirt bikers, snowmobillers zooming right past me. But I view it that they have as much right to do what they do as much as we have a right to climb.

 

They don't have that right, and neither do we. Do we have as much impact as on the environment as motor powered sports? No...not really. However if I have been going to those caves and one day see it defaced by chalk...I would be pissed about it just as if someone tagged it with spray paint.

 

I'm not saying shut down all climbing areas, however I don't buy into that sense of entitlement that says we can bolt and climb wherever we want. This is a debate that isn't exclusive to climbing. There are still trails where horses can go and mountains bikes can't, etc. etc.

[Sphinx]

Didn't Twight write "I accept Sport Climbing, I participate. Sport Alpinism though?"

 

I think this sums it up. Sport Climbing should be left at Sport Crags to flourish. Just don't bolt shit in the mountains.

[bunglehead]

Ahh, the infamous photos that started it all..Funny how "Larry" didn't bother to take pictures of all the TRASH too. Maybe they would have banned everybody.

 

[glassgowkiss]

what I mean was. Have you ever rapelled? have you ever left gear behind. I think it should be a FA decission how to protect a climb. I think ( as many others) that you are missing the point. It shouldn't be up to land managers to decide weather you can put a bolt, a piton, a stoper or an ice screw.

Last winter we went and put up a pretty cool alpine route on quite big face. we didn't have a bolt kit. But i also clipped some vast number of bolts in my 23 years of climbing. I think both styles are valid and can coexist.

But please don't play this hollier then thou, because i don't buy it.

back to the discussion, so what can we do as far as the threat of access shutdown?

[mattp]

Glasskisser-

I generally agree with your comments in this last exchange, but I want to quibble with a couple of minor points:

 

(1) I don't think it is quite right to say that only low end climbers care about bolts. You are right, perhaps, that those who yell the loudest about bolting tend to be less talent in the technical rock realm and that is no surprise: to get to the upper eschelon of the sport you almost have to train at sport crags and gyms. But is not the same as saying all anti-bolt people are suck climbers.

 

(2) the stars that you mention are not too bad on this issue, but top climbers can in fact get very judgmental of others.

 

Those who decry the modern trend toward bolting everything in sight have a valid issue, and I don't think it is productive to put them down for the same reason that I don't like to see Dwayner spray his derisive rhetoric about what cowards the sport climbers are.

[Figger_Eight]

Maybe they would have banned everybody.

 

It sounds like they did by gating off the cave.

[gapertimmy]

what fascinates me, that in an effort to protect and preserve these pristine caves they have violated their own code:

 

Sec. 7. PROHIBITED ACTS AND CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

(a) PROHIBITED ACTS.—

 

(1) Any person who, without prior authorization from the Secretary, knowingly destroys, disturbs, defaces, mars, alters, removes or harms any significant cave or alters the free movement of any animal or plant life into or out of any significant cave located on Federal lands, or enters a significant cave with the intention of committing any act described in this paragraph shall be punished in accordance with subsection (b).

http://www.caves.org/ctf/oregon/COCTF/federal.htm

[glassgowkiss]

oh my! F8, what a photo. So since when is basalt black? The only reason you can see chalk like that is the years of tire burning at the entrance to the cave. So how about powerwashing of the surface and seeing if you still can see a chalk then?

funny story, as we were walking through Hidden Forest cave Lary King was pinting to all this visual impact. As the matter of fact most of what he was pointing was sulphur deposits and bird guano , he even didn't point climbing routes

[Sphinx]

Bottom line is that it is inappropriate to hijack, or try to hijack, every thread you post on. Dwayner, get a clue. Keep your spray where it belongs. At your age you should be mature enough to accomplish this. I hope.

[gapertimmy]

an interesting side note, when we we're out there on road 18 last weekend, a family was out driving around and asked me for directions. the dad had grown up in the area and had brought his family back to hike in the caves.

 

instead of exploring, the kids got to see some gates, with a shitload of broken glass and trash outside of it.

 

 

Nice work Mr. King, he even got an award from his caving cronies for putting in his fixed anchors.

 

To me, this is like the Northwest Forest Pass on crack, where is this going to stop, what is going to prevent the FS from putting in gates on popular FS roads (or closing them permantently).

 

"preserving your Outdoor legacy" i believe it says on the pass

[glassgowkiss]

mattp, i think i answered your question. I am just a user of both schools. I don't go alpine climbing witha bolt kit. But why is it such a problem for traditionalists to accept sport climbing?

[DCramer]

A month or two ago I spoke with Andy Fitz. He asked me if I knew anyone interested in getting involved in access issues. I pointed across the room at Mattp!

 

About 18 months ago a half-dozen or so climbers from cc.com got together to talk about access issues. After seeing the discussion on cc.com get hijacked we pretty much left the site alone. We got caught up our own thing which was mainly to replace bolts and a little trail maintenance. I think Glasscow is on the right track in trying to get something together now.

 

I would be happy to organize a get together either a BBQ or an evening at the pub if anyone would be interested. I bet Andy would be happy to join us.

 

Anyone interested?

 

Darryl

 

[RuMR]

I'm interested...

[Figger_Eight]

So since when is basalt black

 

If it's the same stuff as what's down in the Lower Gorge, it seems for a long time now.

 

Do I agree with the closure...dunno - I haven't been down there. Can I understand their argument? Absolutely. Chalked up climbing areas are an eyesore - the boulders in Leavenworth are one example. At least in those areas the chalk has a chance of being washed away with rain.

 

I still take issue with your notion that climbers must stand next to a fat beer bellied snowmobiler fighting for his right to highpoint any slope he wants to

[mattp]

Sign me up.

[jon]

I've seen lots of white shit like that photo in caves, but it wasn't chalk.

 

Nothing like arguing about bolts in a cave that's located in a middle of a clearcut, from your house made of wood.

[glassgowkiss]

DCramer said:

A month or two ago I spoke with Andy Fitz. He asked me if I knew anyone interested in getting involved in access issues. I pointed across the room at Mattp!

 

About 18 months ago a half-dozen or so climbers from cc.com got together to talk about access issues. After seeing the discussion on cc.com get hijacked we pretty much left the site alone. We got caught up our own thing which was mainly to replace bolts and a little trail maintenance. I think Glasscow is on the right track in trying to get something together now.

 

I would be happy to organize a get together either a BBQ or an evening at the pub if anyone would be interested. I bet Andy would be happy to join us.

 

Anyone interested?

 

Darryl

Darryl, I have to figure out what I am going to do for work in the next couple of months. and where I am going to live as my current situation is rather unclear.

What I would like to see is a change of strategy with Access Fund. I don't think current "nice guy- let's negotiate" approach works. The whole issue of Central Oregon caves was one of the reasons I moved out of the area.

I think in general it is more of a nation wide issue and according steps should be taken. I belive it is a job for someone with really good legal background, who can stand their own in a room full of hostile looks.

[DCramer]

Well that's two! I'll get in touch with Andy and find out his schedule.

 

Everyone -

Let me know if you are interested.

 

Glasscow -

 

I uderstand and agree with much of what you are saying. If people seem interested and a date I set I hope you can come. National level action is only one-half of the equation. We need more local activity if only to become more aware of potential problems.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2003 by DCramer

[Dru]

jon said:

I've seen lots of white shit like that photo in caves, but it wasn't chalk.

 

Nothing like arguing about bolts in a cave that's located in a middle of a clearcut, from your house made of wood.

 

what about fido - eating the bats huh?

[glassgowkiss]

Figger_Eight said:

So since when is basalt black

 

If it's the same stuff as what's down in the Lower Gorge, it seems for a long time now.

 

Do I agree with the closure...dunno - I haven't been down there. Can I understand their argument? Absolutely. Chalked up climbing areas are an eyesore - the boulders in Leavenworth are one example. At least in those areas the chalk has a chance of being washed away with rain.

 

I still take issue with your notion that climbers must stand next to a fat beer bellied snowmobiler fighting for his right to highpoint any slope he wants to

ok, so you haven't seen the place up close, you haven't been in there, but you can agree withan absurd arbitrary decission.

Winter of 92/93 was particularly snowy in Central Oregon. After a snow melted there wasn't a single chalk mark in that rock. It stayed black (of course a natural color for basalt

can't compare flow in lower gorge and the caves. Read some geology and then we can talk.

Edited September 12, 2003 by glassgowkiss