kick ass site

[JayB]

quote:

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Originally posted by pope:

JayB, you have a beautiful way with words! May I borrow this for my signature?

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One must be mindful of one's audience. Sometimes you've just got to speak in the same langauge that the natives use in order to communicate with them

Seriously though, You can use the quote as long as you respect the copyright and give me a fair cut of the royalties. I'll even print it on a T-shirt for a nominal fee. Order now and I'll include free headband and wristbands for no extra charge...

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[pope]

No construct of words have I yet read that so thoroughly and poetically expresses my range of emotions and convictions on this subject! We'll arrange a contract. I need to replace my old standby.

-----------------------------------------------

Caution: my schlanger is even larger than it appears in your side mirror.

[Dwayner]

Brother JayB:He say: "However, the "No matter how hard you climb,if you clip bolts then you are a pussy and I'm a better, purer climber than you are, bow before me" routine really starts to grate after a while."The part about clipping the bolts I contend is true but I don't necessarily think I'm better or require the bowing (that's strictly optional), but I would say I'm cleaner and purer in the sense that a) I don't condone the widespread bolting that is the mainstay of sport-climbing, but instead am an advocate of "clean" - as little trace as possible - climbing (which means bolts are a last resort, not a first) and b) I can admit that I can't climb 5.13 on-sight, and would not fool myself into believing that I am a "5.13 climber" if I had managed to accomplish such a thing by repeated rehersal, hanging and inspection, sometimes over a period of days or weeks, with the aid of super-specialized footwear, etc. That would be a form of self-delusion. I'm impressed by climbers that can lead hard trad from the bottom up in such a way that it leaves little trace and remains intact for the next generation. c) bouldering....I just don't get it. It appears goofy and the most trivial of the trivial, but that's a matter of personal taste. And furthermore...I still don't buy into this don't "diss" [hopfully the first and last time I ever use such a term] it if you can't do it nonsense...it's an utterly specious argument. It's an opinion...it's worth what you paid for it.Having said that, I appreciate JayB's exceptional civility, which is often lacking in these sorts of commentary.Go forth and do great things.- Dwayner

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Dwayner ]

[JayB]

It's back from the dead...The Frankenthread...Run for your lives!!!

Dwayner:

You have my thanks for maintaining a civil and refreshingly light-hearted tone as well. Yes, the “Don’t dis it if you can’t do it*” ethos is an opinion, not an argument. I’m certainly ready to concede that point, but in so doing, can’t help but point out that the same label applies to any ethical standard that one might adhere to with respect to climbing – even the vaunted ground-up clean-trad ethic. Which, I might add, is a fine one and my hat is off to all of those who adhere to it at all costs. People who hold themselves to such a rigid standard when surrounded by the constant temptation to do otherwise command a certain amount of respect, even if it’s not a standard I’d want to adhere myself. Sort of like the vows of chastity, poverty, etc. undertaken by various ascetic sects around the world. They and their temples should be left unmolested so that they may continue to practice their faith – which in terms of climbing means keeping the bolts off of established routes and keeping new bolts to an absolute minimum on new routes in areas where that ethic prevails.

However, where I draw the line is when folks who adhere to a certain creed insist that the rest of the world should abide by their dictums or be damned. Accordingly, while a set of ethics which demands that climbers abstain from placing any bolts whatsoever works in some areas, there are plenty of others where, at least in the eyes of the vast majority of the climbing population doing so is just plain silly – Rifle, Shelf Road, and Vantage (on the faces not the cracks) come to mind. I’ve heard the arguments for complete abstinence – preserving the opportunity for future climbers to free solo death routes (just look at all of the climbers clamoring for the opportunity today… , equating drilling a 3/8ths bolt to the environmental equivalent to another Valdez or Chernobyl, etc. etc. and they inevitably come off as desperate, if not downright Quixotic, attempts to force the no-bolting creed beyond its proper boundaries. Sort of like a Franciscan monk extolling the virtues of chastity in the middle of a whorehouse.

And just like the aforementioned Monk, advocates of sensible restraints on bolting would make a lot more headway, in my opinion, if they eased up on the condemnation and damnation if they were to confine their sermons to the proper venues and pick their battles a bit more carefully. Otherwise most climbers (folks who likely include bouldering and sport climbing in their retinue) will inevitably regard them in much they same way they view the crazy-eyed street proselytizers sporting a bottle of Night Train in one hand and a “Repent or Perish” placard in the other – that is, as zealots whose perspective is so divorced from reality that it needn’t even be acknowledged, much less taken seriously, and who’s concern for broadcasting their own righteousness far outweighs any ostensible concern they may have for the cause they’re railing on behalf of. However, if the great bolt jihad is waged on the right battlefields – big granite formations, alpine routes, and other miscellaneous trad strongholds – I’m willing to listen, and will most likely agree with you. Just a thought…back to the sit start…

*And as far as the term, “Dis” is concerned, I’m willing to wager that this, like many other neologisms from days past will make its way into everyday language much to the chagrin of prescriptive lexicographers everywhere. It’s not my favorite word, but I can’t think of any other substitutes which would convey the same meaning. I wouldn’t expect any less from you given you’re views on bolting, but thought I’d offer up a quote from the granddaddy of all would-be keepers of the prescriptive faith:

“Of the event of this work, for which, having laboured it with so much application, I cannot but have some degree of parental fondness, it is natural to form conjectures. Those who have been persuaded to think well of my design, require that it should fix our language, and put a stop to those alterations which time and chance have hitherto been suffered to make in it without opposition. With this consequence I will confess that I flattered myself for a while; but now begin to fear that I have indulged expectation which neither reason nor experience can justify. When we see men grow old and die at a certain time one after another, from century to century, we laugh at the elixir that promises to prolong life to a thousand years; and with equal justice may the lexicographer be derided, who being able to produce no example of a nation that has preserved their words and phrases from mutability, shall imagine that his dictionary can embalm his language, and secure it from corruption and decay, that it is in his power to change sublunary nature, or clear the world at once from folly, vanity, and affectation. With this hope, however, academies have been instituted, to guard the avenues of their languages, to retain fugitives, and repulse intruders; but their vigilance and activity have hitherto been vain; sounds are too volatile and subtile for legal restraints; to enchain syllables, and to lash the wind, are equally the undertakings of pride, unwilling to measure its desires by its strength.”

-Samuel Johnson

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[allison]

Where is my ETHER?

[AlpineK]

quote:

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Originally posted by allison:

Where is my ETHER?

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Yeah someone needs to be put down.

Sportos suck and sporto areas are kind of lame, but I don't think I'm better or worse cause I've clipped some bolts.

[Dwayner]

In the words of Mr. JayB:However, where I draw the line is when folks who adhere to a certain creed insist that the rest of the world should abide by their dictums or be damned...I’ve heard the arguments for complete abstinence – preserving the opportunity for future climbers to free solo death routes (just look at all of the climbers clamoring for the opportunity today...)Such extreme rhetoric! Some of us believe that bolting should be rare and each bolt should be justified. I also believe that many presently bolted routes could have been climbed with a top-rope, thus preserving the rock. It's just as easy to hang off the end of a rope on a top-rope as it is to dangle from a bolt you just clipped, except in the former case, you leave the rock to enjoy in a more natural state for generations to come. Adding bolts to existing climbs changes its character (e.g. Dan's Dreadful Direct). If you don't like it(too hard, too dangerous, etc.), you can always stay off of it (or top-rope it). Not everything needs to be climbed nor drilled into submission. As I mentioned months ago during that whole DDD controversy, most of Castle Rock is how it was 25 years ago when I first climbed there. I would like to see it in similar condition 25 years from now. I can't say that much for Vantage which I think is an utter disgrace.

"equating drilling a 3/8ths bolt to the environmental equivalent to another Valdez or Chernobyl, etc." That's quite an exaggeration you're making there, sir, almost on par with the fellow who used the term "terrorist" to describe someone who was removing bolt hangers from Vantage sport climbs.

"Sort of like a Franciscan monk extolling the virtues of chastity in the middle of a whorehouse."Nice turn of phrase, amigo!: "a Franciscan monk in the middle of a whore house"! That's exactly how I felt the last time I visited Vantage. (Or was it a Benedictine?)

"And just like the aforementioned Monk, advocates of sensible restraints on bolting would make a lot more headway, in my opinion, if they eased up on the condemnation and damnation if they were to confine their sermons to the proper venues and pick their battles a bit more carefully. Otherwise most climbers (folks who likely include bouldering and sport climbing in their retinue) will inevitably regard them in much they same way they view the crazy-eyed street proselytizers sporting a bottle of Night Train in one hand and a “Repent or Perish” placard in the other – that is, as zealots whose perspective is so divorced from reality that it needn’t even be acknowledged, much less taken seriously, and who’s concern for broadcasting their own righteousness far outweighs any ostensible concern they may have for the cause they’re railing on behalf of..."I would venture to say that a great many of the people entering "climbing" today are introduced to such by way of a gym or sport climbing area, and have no idea that there is anything potentially dubious about the effects of bolting, etc. Some of us began our climbing careers with the birth of what was called "clean climbing". The damage of pitons and bolts was explicitly recognized and revolutionary attempts were made to avoid this sort of "dirty" climbing. (Not to speak of hanging on pro as "free climbing" which I consider a stylistic rather than an environmental issue.) With the normalization of "sport climbing" and widespread rap-bolting, etc., the clean-climbing revolution seems to have been mostly forgotten. A few of us missionaries, still survive to spread the word, and will continue to do so. And not all of us are bolt-chopping fanatics, either.

"And as far as the term, “Dis” is concerned, I’m willing to wager that this, like many other neologisms from days past will make its way into everyday language much to the chagrin of prescriptive lexicographers everywhere."Au contraire, mon frere, I predict that the word "dis" will become a lexical artifact in the manner of "groovy" and "phat"; a temporal linguistic marker that while in some sense expressive, will not be accepted in formal spoken English.

What? You want to hear more...? Hey...put down that ether! Get that stuff away from me! What the...

[max]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dwayner:

I would venture to say that a great many of the people entering "climbing" today are introduced to such by way of a gym or sport climbing area, and have no idea that there is anything potentially dubious about the effects of bolting, etc. Some of us began our climbing careers with the birth of what was called "clean climbing". The damage of pitons and bolts was explicitly recognized and revolutionary attempts were made to avoid this sort of "dirty" climbing. (Not to speak of hanging on pro as "free climbing" which I consider a stylistic rather than an environmental issue.) With the normalization of "sport climbing" and widespread rap-bolting, etc., the clean-climbing revolution seems to have been mostly forgotten. A few of us missionaries, still survive to spread the word, and will continue to do so. And not all of us are bolt-chopping fanatics, either.

---

I'm hesitant to add my thoughts since wwhat's been said above is so perfectly civil and insightful. I've got intelectual secerity issues.

I've selected this from D's responce because it struck a nerve with me. Now, I'm not using this as evidence to show Dwayner is (we'll fill this blank in a bit), but mearly using it as an example, or maybe simply as a lead into what I have to share.

I'm a relatively young climber. I also consider myself to be at least on the "trad" side of the current issue, if not a discernable distance from the mean. But I often get responces from the older climbers that seem to sterotype me as a bolt clipping sport monkey. It seems that some people think that because I wasn't there for the clean climbing revolution I have no respect for it. Far from the truth. I'll admit to having clipped a few bolts and even shitty fixed pins and had a big smile come across my face. I've finagled with old nuts in shitty cracks and pulled shenanigans to make myself think I had some pro. So I have at least some sense of the boldness the first wave of clean climbers demonstrated. To hear some old fart (now remember, I'm not talking aboutmyou, right?) give me a lecture on how I need to stop clipping bolts and learn to respect...blah blah blah.. Can it. Go sterotype someone else.

So, did you say "a great many [not all] of the people entering "climbing" today are introduced to such by way of a gym or sport climbing area?" Yes. Alright, it wasn't a blanket statement. Did you say "Some of us began our climbing careers with the birth of what was called "clean climbing". Yes. Another non-blanket statement, but one similar to those that seem to ignore the younger generation that's doing the very same thing. Finally "A few of us missionaries still survive to spread the word..." was in there too. Not too strong, but still similar to comments that hint at blind ritousness and martordom (it's especially embarassing to mispell things when addressing you, Mr. Dwayner)

On a related issue, "no matter how hard you climb,if you clip bolts then you are a pussy.." is complete crap. I know of crazy, scary, insane routes in Yosemite, Cochise Stronghold, and even a few just moderately crazy routes in Leavenworth, Squamish, Jtree...(the list goes on) that are all bolt (un)protected, that were put up by sick dudes (and you can use the "dudes" if you'd like, too). THey clipped the bolts. If you're calling them pussies, I'm not sure I understand your scale!

I'll sum it up by saying to those that cry about bolts and yabber about how "those young punks don't know what it was like when I was climbing with a rack of nuts and a whole lots balls..." haven't seen the same cross section of the climbing population as I. And like I said, I'm not getting on your case, just what you said made me think.

[JayB]

Mr. Dwayner:

While there’s no mistaking the fact that I was advocating a position that differs from your own, I injected the overblown rhetoric into the post as a form of self mockery in an attempt to kill off the thread on a light note. Especially the bit about the term “Dis” - which, for the record, I think you are right about. Really. Seemed like a segue into the prescriptive vs. descriptive debate would be an easy way to spoof the old-school vs. new school arguments just a bit. Looks like I’m the only one that got the joke though....(echo)...hello...

Anyhow, thanks for being a good sport and a fine apostle of your creed. When I get out to Washington the first round of ether is on me.*

*Joke

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[Dwayner]

Brother Max:

My comments aren't necessarily age-specific and I stick by them. There are also a lot of "older" people just beginning to climb who are equally clueless to the issues. I believe it is a fact that the majority of new participants in "climbing" these days are getting their education in gyms and sport areas. It's very attractive as the learning curve is very short and the social opportunities are many. I don't care how old or young anyone is, the concerns remain. And if the "youngsters" get a lot of the blame, it might be because they command the majority of the attention in the mag's, etc. Ultimately, I don't care how you climb...you can hang on pro all you want, if you choose, and I can have my own opinion on style, but when it comes to permanently altering the rock, or leaving your garbage on Everest, I believe there are some issues worthy of consideration.

As far as I'm concerned, the clean climbing revolution continues, although in need of revival, and you are as welcome as anyone to help spread the word.

- Comrade Dwayner

Cheers, mate! By the way..."young fart", as far as "lecturing" is concerned...you and others of all ages could learn alot from people who have been around a bit...some of my heroes and mentors are in their seventies and eighties and offer insights I would probably not gather from someone else without the life experience. It's up to you to listen, question and evaluate, and to adopt, alter or dismiss.

And sorry, I'm afraid that I can't take credit for the original "bolt-clipping pussy" quote.

[max]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dwayner:

By the way..."young fart", as far as "lecturing" is concerned...you and others of all ages could learn alot from people who have been around a bit...some of my heroes and mentors are in their seventies and eighties and offer insights I would probably not gather from someone else without the life experience. It's up to you to listen, question and evaluate, and to adopt, alter or dismiss.

---

I feel fortunate to have been able to mentor under an awesome "old dude" for the first four years of my climbing. He taught me lots of practiacal things about climbing, but even better he taught me about climbing smart and not acting like a sixteen year old.

Ahhh, isn't that sweet!

[Dwayner]

And thanks JayB and Max, for your thoughtful and often witty comments. No need to "kill" the discussion. It has a life of its own and will come and go as the opportunity arises, but rarely in such a civil manner (unfortunately).

- Dwayner

[offwidthclimber]

i went ropeless this weekend, and as a bonus, got to leisurely climb in some beautiful, warm north idaho sun and put up a new boulder problem

i called it "sockless retard" in honor of all the dipshits who have lost their socks while swimming at the lake. i noticed this strange phenomenon while hauling out 40 lbs of trash i cleaned up there last week.

interesting conversation on this thread while i was offline this weekend...

anyway, i'll say it again,

word to climbxmedia.word to the crusty tradhogsword to the sport monkeys.word to the bouldering mutants.word to the ice freaks.word to the aid sickos.

and most of all, word to the which i'm enjoying right now.

peace.

[allison]

Um, hey, I hate to be all semantic here, but call one another anything you want, unless it is a derogatory term for the sweet female pie, in other words, calling someone a 'pussy' is not acceptable. Peeing in one another's butts, well I say have at it, if that's the insult that flies your kite, but, um, well, 'pussy' is sort of, well, not a thing that is bad. And I really hate to see it used that way, even in jest. It's disrespectful in a way that is not funny.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: allison ]

[RURP]

This is RURP:

She said "calling someone a 'pussy' is not acceptable". I thought it means "cat". You don't like cats? Probably not, especially with all of this talk about bringing dogs to Joshua Tree.

RURP has spoken.

[RURP]

This is RURP:

"the sweet female pie, not a thing that is bad." O.K. I think I understand this now. So why don't you tell them to stop calling me an "asshole" and a "prick". Do you use those words?

RURP has spoken.

[pope]

quote:

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Originally posted by allison:

Um, hey, I hate to be all semantic here, but calling one another anything you want unless it is a derogatory term for the sweet female pie, in other words, calling someone a 'pussy' is not acceptable. Peeing in one another's butts, well I say have at it, if that's the insult that flies your kite, but, um, well, 'pussy' is sort of, well, not a thing that is bad. And I really hate to see it used that way, even in jest. It's disrespectful in a way that is not funny.

---

Allison! Congratulations: your foul language made me blush. Where do you find the audacity to talk like that in public....have you been boozin'? "Pussy" is a word guys use to describe one who behaves like a coward....let's say, a guy who drills a line of bolts next to a perfectly good crack. Yeah, that guy is a pussy. Generally, the term is used in this context without reference to genitalia, although if you wish conjure up such images, be my guest. However, I believe the use of "pussy" that appears in this thread derives from the verb "pussyfoot", which means to tread warily, or to refrain from committing oneself....which is exactly what occurs when "lead" bolts are drilled by one who is not leading.

"Pee in each other's butt"? I still can't believe my ears. Remind me to never let my daughter log on to this site.

Max: make it an age issue if you wish. Ignore sound advice for whatever reason you want. Dwayner didn't mean to insult anybody when he stated that the clean climbing ethic seems forgotten. Rap bolting is a legacy that a number of guys who are my age have left for you. Today's young climbers didn't invent it, although many of them embrace it. Many of them don't know any different. When Dwayner and Pope condemn the practice, they are not condemning you, nor are they condemning your contemporaries. We are simply saying that the best interest of all people is served when we treat the rocks as a limited, natural resource. Where one guy approves of bolts, the next guy approves of carving buckets. Where does it stop? Why should anybody have the right to add unsightly hardware, hardware that permanently degrades the wilderness feel of a cliff? And if it is occasionally justified, shouldn't it be only in very special circumstances? Like Dwayner says, a bolt should be a last resort, not a first resort.

[johnny]

OK this sucks!! I just put together this thoughtful and LENGTHY reply and apparently put too many images (greamlins) in it and LOST the whole F#&%ing thing!!! What gives?

Moderators, Anyone? how do you get the too many image message, hit back and get nothing but a blank reply dialogue box? (notice there are only 7 f$&%ing images thank you very much!!)

[allison]

Pope, you completely fail to see my point. This is what I expected, unfortunately.

The graphic phrase that I used as an example of something else you guys could say to one another was something I saw hurled as an insult on this very website a week or so ago. Ya think I cold make something like that up?

[max]

pope: yeah I was thinking about this last night and was trying to employ the "try to convince yourself into agreement before forming a refutation" trick and realized how appropriate this topic is. Just sunday I climbed a super fun face climb in Boulder Canyon. It was steep with positive holds in most places, a few dicy sections that required some interesting body positions. Bolted. And after having climbed the route, I was a little disappointed that it was bolted since there were plenty of #1-#4 TCU cracks. The bolts were purely for convenience. So I have to moderate what I said above. Your (plural) right; there are quite a few climbs out there that are and should not be bolted. And that's too bad.

Later.

http://www.climbingboulder.com/rock/db/boulder_canyon/the_boulderado/qs.html

This page is full of Boulderisms. I especially like the comment from Zach! And the exposed trail they talk about... yeah, it's exposed if you're riding a unicycle backwards with your eyes closed and a watermelon on yer head! Overhung? Stoopid. I have to vent a little about Boulder! I gues sthe best thing is to laugh.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: max ]

[texplorer]

Silly posters,

Don't you know if your post is more than 3 lines nobody reads it. They see, "So IMO blah blah blah blah bolts blah blah pussy blah blah buttmunch blah blah blah."

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by max:

pope: yeah I was thinking about this last night and was trying to employ the "try to convince yourself into agreement before forming a refutation" trick and realized how appropriate this topic is. Just sunday I climbed a super fun face climb in Boulder Canyon. It was steep with positive holds in most places, a few dicy sections that required some interesting body positions. Bolted. And after having climbed the route, I was a little disappointed that it was bolted since there were plenty of #1-#4 TCU cracks. The bolts were purely for convenience. So I have to moderate what I said above. Your (plural) right; there are quite a few climbs out there that are and should not be bolted. And that's too bad.

]

---

Max, you have provided an example of why I have more faith in your generation than I do my own. I don't find fault in young climbers who clip bolts when so many of them don't know any different. The climbers who disgust me are the guys who are my age and older who continue to litter our cliffs even when they know a better way. You, my friend, have demonstrated the ability to divorce yourself from the contrived "generation-gap" emotions and examine the issue from a time/age-independent perspective.

Max, a big "high-five" to you, from your alpine buddies Pope and Dwayner. You have the opportunity to propel climbing in your generation forward, to improve on what can only be described as the "dark ages" of narcissism and self-absorption we've witnessed in the last two decades. Back to the future!

[specialed]

Pope do you really care if someone bolts some shit chosspile like Rifle? Noones ever going to climb there if there was no bolts. I'll personally never climb there regardless, but if noone bolted it it would be some obscure piece of crap rock noone even knew existed. If someone wants to bolt it and climb that shit I could care less.

[DCramer]

It is nice to see civility being given at least a moment of respect on this board. For the next step I say we should try for “constructive engagement.” When I first started posting here I thought great this could be a wonderful facility to help to create a true community of NW climbers. I was particularly interested in the “bolting’ debate and access related issues. If Dwayner, Pope, et al are serious then I ask why not constructively engage in a discussion. Clearly the tired “sport climbers are effete castrati” line is BS and having loss its patina of humor can only serve as an impediment to positive change. The whole traditional v. sport conflict is a tired cliché promoted mostly by the mags and yet, oddly enough, this argument has been adopted as a means of expression by those who have condemned both sport climbing and those very mags. Although the recent pattern seems to be to make unambiguous statements that are later moderated and the argument slightly adjusted. On the other hand about ten years ago I was discussing putting up sport routes with someone and they said you don’t understand modern climbing! (I was advocating restraint)

I have been “dissed” on this site for being a goofy bolter. Yet after face to face discussion of recent bolting activities with many current activists they have come back later and accused me of chopping their routes. It is truly an amazing world. It is easy to whine about bolting on this site yet not one person has ever in over 25 years of putting routes up in Washington has ever contacted me and discussed bolting, cleaning or whatever. That the rock is a limited natural resource has been stated by both sides. The debate itself rages over a continuum bound by the endpoints: All humans off earth and Do whatever you want to do. From a moral/ethical point of view the difference between points can only be determined by social norms. It is in climbers’ best interest to generate these norms themselves. The willingness of the various groups to compromise their position in creating these norms seems to be tenuous at best. I say we are in the same boat and truth be told most of us are probably not that far apart.

As far as the site goes I thought that the excitement and enthusiasm the creators have for what they do is contagious and inspiring. Stuck at work sometimes it is easy to forget what fun climbing can be. Speaking of which I have to get back to it.

This part added after a terribly boring work related lunch:

One bolt advocate and I mean he thinks bolting by cracks is OK type of advocate called me up and after finding out I did not chop his route started whining to me about the DDD debacle (quick aside: It always comes up because it is so atypical) He mentioned the debate on this site and how all the anti-bolters were ass$%^& how he wanted no part of any discussion with them. I responded saying ok I agree they are all assholes but that their opinion not their generally BS argument should be considered. He said something to the effect of “F%$# those ass#$$%.” He also said, similar to what I wrote above, that he received lots of pro-comments but virtually no anti-comments on a face to face basis. Now this guy does some very bold traditional climbing, doesn’t bolt for any self promotion but honestly feels it is ok. The argument that sport climbers are ego fueled wimps was obviously set to insult not convince and so it did not/does not move him but he was receptive to the fact that other might have different views and that maybe these views might warrant respect. I guess I see the anti-bolters missing an opportunity. Dwayner and Pope are surely capable of writing a more persuasive commentary. I am somewhat sympathetic to their conclusion but feel that the issue is so big as to have many causes and solutions; however, enumerating and discussing them all could be an enjoyable activity.

Darryl

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: DCramer ]

[pope]

Daryl, due to both boredom and conviction, I've read and contributed to many of the bolting threads on this board. Many of the discussions focus on vague philosophies which support why advocates and opponents of bolting line up on the sides they do. Other discussions have been more situationally specific, with an attempt to reach common ground. Bolting opponents have been heard to say, "Not every bolt is bad. When placed on the lead in an area where less destructive anchors are not available, a bolt may be appropriate." Bolting opponents have been heard to say, "When superb belay anchors are not available, a fixed belay consisting of at least two 3/8" or 1/2" bolts are not only acceptable, they should be required." On the other hand, advocates of bolting have been heard to say, "Bolting next to a reasonable crack is really lame." The details of these discussions are often more civil than you seem to have noticed.

Now, when you state that there is more common ground to be found than we might realize, I completely agree. Where I disagree with you is on who should wear the "asshole" emblem. Dwayner and Pope are quite vocal about how we feel about bolts, but neither of us has ever chopped a bolt. If you find bitching about bolts to be really annoying, then try standing on our side of the fence and imagine how many times more insulting it must be to witness the permanent molestation of mountaineering challenge and alpine beauty. You see, we're whining about it, but what bolting advocates are doing goes beyond discussion: we view what they are doing as public property damage. And BTW, I think I speak for Dwayner when I say that we have stated our case quite articulately. But feel free to offer your brilliant interpretation of the issues. We're waiting.

Also, regarding your associate, the one with whom you agree when he states that bolting opponents on this site are assholes: you make reference to the idea that he somehow surveyed climbers prior to bolting a project. I may be speculating, but if your associate is one of the DDD bolters, I might add that at least two climbers strongly discouraged the DDD bolting prior to the act, when they were personally contacted by one of the guys who bolted it. And given the nearly unanimous disapproval voiced on the bulletin board subsequent to the retro-bolting of DDD, I think it's fair to say that the guys who bolted it could have put out a better survey, a survey that would sample a broader spectrum of climbers. This site would have been a place to start, but one of the guys who did it does not see the potential and validity in this site that you and I see, and so he elected not to give notice.