dkemp Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 So the leader climbs to the anchors and sets TR and the last one up cleans the gear. Although I've been mountaineering for years, I'm new to cragging and I'm hearing two schools of thought re cleaning the gear. One is that you thread the rope through the chains, lower that end of the rope down and rappel to the ground, thus saving wear and tear on the chains. The other method appears to be threading the rope through the chains and tieing back in, then have the belayer lower you to the ground. I was originally taught to rappel from the chains so I always do it that way. A few weeks back I was climbing with a guy at Exit 38 and he never rappels - he always has the belayer lower him. I noticed in this months R&I article Learning the Ropes they also suggest tieing back in and getting lowered off. What say y'all? Dox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 chain is cheap. an you prolly dint pay for it anyway. lower away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Rap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 i always rap to save wear on the chains. but i'm not an ass like lummox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I usually always rap from the chains when crag climbing. These are the situations when I don't: 1. I fucked up and forgot my belay device. 2. A ropegun sets up a toprope for less accomplished climber like myself where there is potential that I may never see the chains... so, said ropegun threads it through chains and is lowered. 3. I am setting up a toprope for someone who doesn't know how to tear down and anchor. I was taught to minimize wear on chains and rope if there is a sharp ledge it is running on. Maybe there is less chance of rapping of the end of your rope if someone is lowering you... like if you aren't rapping from the center of the rope or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Use your judgement... It is nice to preserve the chains. but they are gonna get some wear even from pulling a rap line, although not as much fer sure. In some areas there are glue-ins which can be threaded, but are hell to replace. Then it is kinda de rigeur to rap whenever possible. Another consideration is if the anchor is less than bomber, you can put less stress on it by rapping than having someone lower you. Of course if it is really sketch, you can leave a biner on a bolt below the anchor for a back up while being lowered... A nice aside here is a trick that I like: Lead, then thread the chains. If you are gonna TR, hang the rope through a draw such that it is weighting the draw instead of the chain. TR all day if you want to, then last person up pulls the draw and lowers off. Nice thing here is any one can clean the anchor safely, even if they have little experience, because it is already threaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 nice tip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susan Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Aside from the benefit of not wearing out chains as fast, you are less likely to be dropped by your partner and injured and killed if you rap instead of being lowered. I can think of two accidents in the last year that are a direct result of this. Rapping not only saves chains, it might save you Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 If you rap you might be more inclined to ask if your rope is touching the ground. If you are lowered then you might get lowered off the end of the roped and get owies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Awwww, cute. Caveman said "owies". Please don't give me an owie for picking on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgod Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Hey! All you Exit 38 fuckers who TR through the chains--FUCK YOU! Had to save a gal last time I was there whose rope got fubared because her partner though that it was AOK to set up a TR though some bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 check this one out about TRing thru aluminum rap rings: web page "Several years ago, Linda and I were on a road trip through the Eastern side of the Sierras. One afternoon we were climbing on the West side of the Owens River Gorge, in a popular area with several climbs. Climbing behind us was a group of six people, top roping a 5.9. After doing a few climbs in the area, we decided to pack-it-in for the afternoon. As we were getting ready to leave, one of the climbers in the group suggested that we try the climb they had been top roping. He told us that although the climb was short and not very challenging, it had some good moves and was a lot of fun. He even offered to hang around and let us use their rope if we wanted to top rope the climb. I thanked him for his offer, but told him that I didn't want to hold them up and I would like to lead the climb. He pulled his rope and explained that they had been using the slings and ring at the bolts to tope rope the climb. While the other group packed up their gear and ate power bars, I headed up the climb. When I got to the top, I was a little concerned with the slings and rap ring that had been left at the bolts. The single aluminum rap ring was tethered to two bolts by several ancient slings. Since I wasn't happy with the anchors, I felt a little community service was in order and decided to replace the slings with some steel quick-links and chains. After tying into the hangers with my slings and lockers and lowering my end of the rope down to Linda, I hauled up my hardware and started cutting away the old slings. When I had cleared most of the old webbing, I was shocked by my first clear view of the rap ring. Two deep grooves had been worn into the rap ring by pulling countless ropes. I was amazed that the ring had held and no one had been injured. When I got to the bottom of the climb and showed the rap ring to the fellow who had offered to let us use his rope, he was devastated. All he could say was "Oh Shit!". The rest of his group came over to check out the rap ring, and a woman in the group really laid into him. I have been carrying the rap ring with me for several years as a reminder to check every station, and never take anything for granted. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 bottom line: dont clean the chains. leave em alone cuz someone else might need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunglehead Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 EEP! Glad I wasn't on that rope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclimb Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Depends. A lot of times it is easier to clean you gear when rapping. I usually always rap unless I am being lowered by a reverso. then I go for the cush ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclimb Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Also, many sketchy anchor chains at a lot of crags. always check first to see what chain links are worn......Then clip into links higher up if lowers are not satisactory OF COURSE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot'teryx Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 rap whenever possible. I hate to rappel, i hate it I don't think anyone should be lowered or TR'd off the chains. I did it a few times when I first started climbing outdoors, and then i noticed normal wear and tear on chains at vantage and exit 38 and it kind of freaked me out. I have also noticed some people like to use the chain links as anchors. meaning they clip the QD's or lockers into the 3rd, 4th, or even the last link instead of the hanger. At least I was told that is bad as the links are not as strong as a hanger or eye(?) bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norsky Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 bird said: I usually always rap from the chains when crag climbing. These are the situations when I don't: 1. I fucked up and forgot my belay device. 2. A ropegun sets up a toprope for less accomplished climber like myself where there is potential that I may never see the chains... so, said ropegun threads it through chains and is lowered. 3. I am setting up a toprope for someone who doesn't know how to tear down and anchor. I was taught to minimize wear on chains and rope if there is a sharp ledge it is running on. Maybe there is less chance of rapping of the end of your rope if someone is lowering you... like if you aren't rapping from the center of the rope or something? And who might "said ropegun" be? Rusty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 scot'teryx said: At least I was told that is bad as the links are not as strong as a hanger or eye(?) bolt. I'd say it's bad, but more for the potential of torque forces on the carabiners. Steel chain is not weak, but no need to throw in "weak links" bwhahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrest_m Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 i too will usually rap instead of lower, but not always. bird's list is a good one: bird said: I usually always rap from the chains when crag climbing. These are the situations when I don't: 1. I fucked up and forgot my belay device. 2. A ropegun sets up a toprope for less accomplished climber like myself where there is potential that I may never see the chains... so, said ropegun threads it through chains and is lowered. 3. I am setting up a toprope for someone who doesn't know how to tear down and anchor. to which i would add 4. i'm cleaning draws off a very overhanging/traversing route and want to use the trolley lowering requires good communication... especially when people start going on and off belay. if at all possible, leave your leader on belay while he/she is threading (a lot of people take them off, apparently to save the trouble of feeding some slack and reeling it back in.) my partner one time leaned back after threading before i had a chance to reel in the slack - he was still on belay, and so only fell 20 feet (what with pulling me 10 ft. off the ground) instead of all the way to the ground. we were having trouble hearing each other because of the wind. he was never actually in danger, but it highlighted for me the dangers involved in the rethread/lower operation. I also agree that the process of setting the ropes up for rappel leaves you less vulnerable to being lowered off the end of the rope. It leaves the climber in control of his safety, not someone on the ground. My experience is that the guy hanging 100 feet off the ground is likely to be more focussed on safety than the guy on the ground, who is chatting with other climbers, petting his dog, whatever. i think the issue of saving wear on the chains is worth thinking about, but is not critical. chain is neither expensive nor difficult to replace. yes, it's nice to save wear on it, but i'm not so concerned about it that i'll go way out of my way to rap when lowering makes sense for other reasons (see above.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Norsky said: bird said: I usually always rap from the chains when crag climbing. These are the situations when I don't: 1. I fucked up and forgot my belay device. 2. A ropegun sets up a toprope for less accomplished climber like myself where there is potential that I may never see the chains... so, said ropegun threads it through chains and is lowered. 3. I am setting up a toprope for someone who doesn't know how to tear down and anchor. I was taught to minimize wear on chains and rope if there is a sharp ledge it is running on. Maybe there is less chance of rapping of the end of your rope if someone is lowering you... like if you aren't rapping from the center of the rope or something? And who might "said ropegun" be? Rusty? Yeah, I have found that stinky eurotrash beanpoles are the best ropeguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Pencil Pusher and I were out climbing the Beckey Route at the Feathers and noticed that the bottom links of the chains are worn at least half way though from people top roping and lowering off of them. Use quick draws to top rope and then rap. It's safer and puts less wear on the chains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 catbirdseat said: Pencil Pusher and I were out climbing the Beckey Route at the Feathers and noticed that the bottom links of the chains are worn at least half way though from people top roping and lowering off of them. Use quick draws to top rope and then rap. It's safer and puts less wear on the chains. or just replace the fucking links you fucking dink. it aint like its brain surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 still in a bad mood? go read a book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 ChrisT said: still in a bad mood? go read a book started 'seabiscuit'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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