he doesn't like my rack

[dryad]

Unless you have a Metolius gear sling that's designed to only go 1 way.

[Cpt.Caveman]

About those gear slings-

 

For free climbing I dont use em. And since I dont aid climb (at least intend to haha!) I dont use one :-)

 

But the thing I do like to use is just a couple of slings. They are light versatile and do the job. If not much gear I just use one 1/2 inch webbing or regular webbing. If more gear I use 2 webbings of 1/2 or whatever I may have available..

 

Those gear slings are just another thing the climbing companies have hyped up everyone and convinced some of them that it is necessary or good to have. Less is more in my case.

[SnowByrd]

Don't worry, "wrong side" is relative, ie the side that you don't use.

 

Whew! I was worried....I surf goofy footed...so I was afraid htat I might be goofy slung as well...

 

O .

oO

0O

*o

@>

 

[ken4ord]

Lead in blocks then you only have to swap the rack once every 4 or 5 pitches.

 

I knew somebody had to say the answer. I prefer racking on my harness but that doesn't matter much. If you transfer gear over only a few times, by leading in blocks. Also some people are just slow. When I am at the belay, belaying the second, I start transfering gear over to slings and organizing the gear. One sling for all the draws, another sling for the gear (organized by type and size). When I am following a pitch I try and organize the gear on my harness keeping cams together, nuts together, and draws together. As long as you are organized you can swap leads pretty fast even if you use different racking techniques.

[JosephH]

I would have to also disagree with the notion that it doesn't matter how you rack gear. If this is a partner you climb with on a regular basis then you should come to some compromise or another if speed, rythmn, and operating in concert mean anything to you.

 

Having your gear act together both for yourself and with a partner means having some system where you both understand what you're doing with a minimum amount of confusion and communication. This may not seem like a big deal, but if you ever get in a truly bad situation, not having your act together individually and collectively can literally become the difference between life and death.

 

Random behavior is not your friend when it comes to honing down your instincts and skills with pro.

[chucK]

Life or death!?

 

You climb pitch. Partner follows and cleans pitch. When your partner is anchored at the belay you give him/her the sling/racking device thingy with all your leftover gear on it. Your partner, arranges it the way he/she likes it and combines with gear he/she cleaned. On a free-climb, this can really only take so long, 2 minutes, 3 tops. Sure it's nice to have some shortcuts, but it's not that big of an issue.

 

What slows a team down much more than having to rearrange the rack is failing to focus on getting the changeover task done, wasting time doing nothing cause your scared or thinking about something else. And of course, leading and climbing slowly.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Yeah no shit life or death. Give it a rest. laughing my ass off. This isn't fucking rocket science. If you imply that cuz some party can't exchange gear in an efficient manner might some day die because of this and direct relations to it's side effects or habits partnerwise fucking laughing harder!!

 

I could see it was "notion that it doesn't matter how you rack gear" seemed to apply to my remarks.

 

Anyone with vast experiences has probably figured out what works best for them and formed their own opinions. Thus they wouldn't be asking people here in this form now would they

[AlpineK]

Being a lefty nobody racks the way I like

 

I'd agree with chuck and the capt'n. Just rerack the way you like. It ain't life or death. On a long climb what is the most important is constant motion. You should always be doing something.

 

Focus on one task, and when you're done immediately start a new task.

[JosephH]

Cpt.

 

Actually, I wasn't talking about your specific comments at all.

 

With regards to the "life or death" comment, I meant the ability to act alone or in concert with a minimum or conversation and confusion (like wondering where any given piece of pro is when you need it, being able to communicate through the rope when out of sight/hearing, periodically tying into the rope when cleaning aid, and knowing you're both tying knots in the end of the rope when doing long raps in the dark, etc... [or in the case of AlpineK's work, that someone in the crew is actually sharpening the chains he's climbing with - if he's that kind of arborist.]).

 

You, Chuck, and AlpineK make it sound like all the various alpine and rock accidents and deaths that occur each year must all be due to some grand and external causes rather than small mistakes made in a moment of confusion over communication or mishandling gear for whatever reason.

 

The point was: get an act/system together - any system - and stick with it so it becomes second nature. Do it individually and do it collectively and you will move far faster and safer. I don't know anyone that climbs fast, hard, and safe that doesn't have a stable and consistent act together with most aspects of their climbing and particularly their gear handling.

 

[ For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys... ]

[AlpineK]

For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys...

 

 

Yo Joseph. Maybe you should stick to the point instead of speculating.

 

You don't have to do things the exact same way your partner does. There are plenty of stories out there of climbing partners who climb some crazy stuff while also having major disfunctional behavior going on. The main thing I'm worried about on a long climb is spending an unplanned night on route.

 

As to accidents; they happen usually when 2 or more things go wrong at one time. Something going wrong includes personal decisions as well as random chance. Like I said above I try and minimize my fuck ups by doing one thing at a time and focusing on the one task I'm doing.

 

I don't choose a partner by finding someone who does things the same way I do. I just look for someone competent who I'm not likely to kill if I'm forced to spend a week in a tent with.

[mattp]

Joseph, we're talking about style here. It sounds as if you like to dial in your "systems" with a partner and there is nothing wrong with that (a lot right, actually), but yours is not the only safe or proper approach to climbing.

 

I have climbed with a German partner who insisted on using twin ropes (not double) for a variety of rock climbs and alpine rock routes, and exclusively the munter belay; to make him comfortable, I did the same. I once climbed with and Australian I'd never met before, and let me tell you: he had some funny ideas about Alpine ice climbing but I didn't think he was unsafe.

 

Over the years, I've teamed up with people who I've never met before, spent zero time working out belay commands and racking methods, and even done some climbs with improper equipment. I've never gone in for speed climbing, but that too is a matter of style and there are other ways to enjoy this world. I don't think I've made a career of being dangerously unsafe but maybe I'm just lucky.

[specialed]

Unless you are a complete gaper death in the mountain doesn't come from where you rack your #3 cam it comes from shit falling on your head and other objective factors.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Cpt.

 

Actually, I wasn't talking about your specific comments at all.

 

With regards to the "life or death" comment, I meant the ability to act alone or in concert with a minimum or conversation and confusion (like wondering where any given piece of pro is when you need it, being able to communicate through the rope when out of sight/hearing, periodically tying into the rope when cleaning aid, and knowing you're both tying knots in the end of the rope when doing long raps in the dark, etc... [or in the case of AlpineK's work, that someone in the crew is actually sharpening the chains he's climbing with - if he's that kind of arborist.]).

 

Hey there’s nothing wrong with all that. I just don’t agree that it is critical to climbing with another being. As others have noted – I have climbed a ton of routes with people I have never met before and varying degrees of experience. It just never made much of a difference as long as the person was competent.

 

You, Chuck, and AlpineK make it sound like all the various alpine and rock accidents and deaths that occur each year must all be due to some grand and external causes rather than small mistakes made in a moment of confusion over communication or mishandling gear for whatever reason.

 

I never said that either. Accidents are what they are – accidents – they are unexpected. I really can’t respond much better than that ramble there since it’s vague. But I can say that each accident should be analyzed and each and every person can take their own judgement what can be learned from them.

 

 

The point was: get an act/system together - any system - and stick with it so it becomes second nature. Do it individually and do it collectively and you will move far faster and safer. I don't know anyone that climbs fast, hard, and safe that doesn't have a stable and consistent act together with most aspects of their climbing and particularly their gear handling.

 

OK if you say so. I climb efficient enough for me and have managed to have a good time. I didn’t know we were taking an exam here.

 

For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys...

 

If I was almost killed 10 times and had 15 stitches in my head might you consider me a better or safer partner? This part doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. As for the most part I climb gumby routes and am fine with that. I didn’t know I was here to impress and lay out some sort of as some climbers call it “resume” (retarded term if you ask me).

[chucK]

Joseph,

I agree with you that you should know what each other are doing. That is the best and most safe, especially when pushing your limits.

 

What I don't agree with is that any specific method of racking and turning over the gear is going to make the difference between life and death.

 

Too often, newbie climbers get concerned that they are so damn slow. They are hoping for some grand shortcut like "special gear turnover method" that is going to shave down their climbing times by 50%. I think this thread is based on this premise. My point was that if you concentrate on what you are doing, and like AlpineK said, always make sure you are doing something to move the team along, then no matter what the specific racking method is, you are going to save maybe 2 minutes max per pitch.

 

Gear racking <=> life or death? No, I don't think you believe that either, we probably just put words in your mouth.

 

Not being in synch with partner <=> life or death. That's probably what you meant. But usually the lack of synch won't be fatal because most people will not be pushing the life and death envelope when climbing with someone they don't work well with (if they know what's good for them).

 

Sure you could die in some freak happenstance, but you could also die from objective hazard with your best in-synch partner.

[JosephH]

Guys,

 

My whole point here is that I happen to disagree with the idea that some things are so trivial that they don't matter and that's the message that then gets conveyed to newbies. I just don't think there is much of anything about what we do that is trivial or to be taken lightly and for the following reason.

 

That is, as the Cpt. is saying, the circumstance of most accidents are unique - i.e. not really that predictable - too unpredictable, in fact, to label or consider any aspect of climbing unimportant, or trivial, or to say it "couldn't possibly cause or contribute to an accident". The problem is that you can get away with saying or believing that 99% of the time (maybe your whole climbing career), but if you happen to get dealt the 1% you get fucked almost every time.

 

E.g.: 10,000 gumbies (not you three guys, I do know you actually do have lots of great experience) can trot up up and down Mt. Hood [or Everest] during the 99% conditions and get away with it (and do), but if the unthinkable 1% event occurs (as it did during the recent epic with the helicopter crash) almost all of those very folks are wholly unprepared to deal - they go up there without the requisite skills to deal with a 1% event gambling that they can get in and out under the 99% conditions.

 

The message I believe you guys are [inadvertantly] conveying that I disagree with is, that based on the fact that all of you [lucky bastards] have managed to randomly rack and roll with strangers without it ever contributing to any problem somehow how means you can safely extrapolate out that it won't be one for someone else. My point is that with racking, or any other aspect of what we do, it all counts exactly because you can't predict or exclude any arbitrary set of failure precursors.

 

Maybe it's because I come from a family of pilots who think risk operates the same way in their world and see the most mundane things bring planes down on a regular basis that I don't treat things like racking as trivial. And in this particular case, I have been way out on the edge with a stranger's rack more times than I can count and recall being pretty fucking unhappy with the situation more than once. On the flip side, I had a partner for years that did everything including racking in sync with me and it still bums me out twenty years later that he lives in Minnesota.

 

As to the specifics of racking, I don't think it makes much difference at all how you rack or re-rack if it works for you, I just happen to believe you should do whatever it is consistently, and really learn it so you don't have to think/talk much about it, and if you have a regular partner you should compromise and get a consistent act between you as well, again - you'll be able to climb harder, faster, and safer in the long run.

 

Life or death - nah (99.9% of the time...)

[Cpt.Caveman]

After reading all your comments I cannot say that there are bad points you are making.

 

But I can say that I don't agree with all of them.

 

I can't see directly how rack exchange or handling gear in discussed manner above would contribute to an accident. It just doesn't add up. I could agree if someone argued - Because we racked like idiots and dropped our #5 camalot for the crux pitch then tried to climb it and got hurt or something along those lines.

 

Basically it appears to me you are trying to disect an accident that hasn't happened yet.

 

I think it's fair to evaluate other's business in the hills but it's hard to get a real good grasp on someone else's skills, brains, fitness and abilities if you don't know them. Thus I don't think the hard line - it's bad to rack this way or system is vital idea - is valid.

 

I guess I am a "lucky bastard" and hope to keep it that way. I definitely have an ability to gauge a person's ability to climb a given route with me by a certain plan. In other words I firmly believe logistics are sometimes more important than the movement. I can make up skill with fitness or fortitude to a certain extent.

[JosephH]

Cpt.

 

Basically it appears to me you are trying to disect an accident that hasn't happened yet.

 

No, I'm think I'm actually trying to agree with you relative to the causes of accidents, I just take a different message away from reading about them and that is just about any little thing can kill you under the right circumstances and I just tend to try to eliminate as much randomness as I can. And again, I don't think how you rack or re-rack matters at all (within reason), just that you do it consistently. But I can also easily envision a slow and confused rack exchange causing or contributing to an accident under the right circumstances even if the odds are somewhat long and remote (and again, you might never encounter them).

 

I very much agree with AlpineK that in a lot of alpine settings speed/time/movement counts. And not just relative to having to bivy unexpectedly. On particularly technical routes with a lot of rockfall and avalanche potential, there is also significant risk in just being in any one place too long. Not being anywhere too long starts really counting from an odds/risk perspective.

 

Messner and Haebler have repeatedly commented on this relative to their rationale for traveling fast, light, and often unroped; saying they felt that sometimes the time it took to deal effectively with the rope caused them to linger too long in place, and that they felt every minute in any given random place significantly increased the risk at that spot.

 

In that context, and under the right circumstances, lingering too long in the wrong spot dicking around with a bad rack transfer or anything else could easily be a bad thing. Am I dissecting an accident that hasn't happened? Or has it, and we just don't know about it? Who knows, but again it's not too hard to imagine an unhappy wrong time/place event happening pretty easily for this or any other reason.

 

And, yes, I figure you, and a lot of us writing these notes, have all been lucky bastards more times than we care to admit, and my general point is anything you can do to help "make" your own luck counts - even, or who knows, maybe especially the little things.

[Cpt.Caveman]

You're really beating a dead horse.

[Greg_W]

JosephH = MtnGoat????

[mattp]

Joseph,

You're talking about the subtext here of whether it is a good idea to suggest to newbies that the little details don't matter. You seem to suggest that it is irresponsible to encourage sloppy climbing habits or to suggest that there is not a right and a wrong way of doing things. You are correct.

 

However, I believe it equally true that many if not most beginning climbers today seem overly preoccupied with the technical side of things. In a climbing gym and in many instructional courses it appears to me that they spend too much time worrying about such things as fall factor analysis or complex rope management systems or SRENE anchors or rigid communication protocols or whatever. I don't know for sure, because it has been a long time since I've taken any instructional courses, but I do see guides and instructors teaching workshops in the field and I have perceived a trend towards making things increasingly complicated and using more and more specialized gear where it is not even remotely necessary. Also, it seems to me that there is more discussion on this bulletin board about "how to build and anchor" or whether a certain knot is fit for a certain purpose than there are about "how to keep moving" or how do you discuss with your partner your wish to retreat in the middle of a climb.

 

Generally with younger or newer climbers, I see them much more likely to waste time and even potentially to make mistakes with complicated rope handling, and I seem them wasting time doing nothing -- much more often than I see them doing something seriously wrong in how they rack their gear or set up a rappel.

[specialed]

Henry Barber's ethic was to rely more on your ability than your gear. An idea that tends to be lost with all the hype generated by the outdoor gear industry that you have to have the most modern tricked out gear system or you can't do the climb. What bullshit.

But what do I know I'm a gaper

[Cpt.Caveman]

Like the whole 10 essentials.

 

10 essentials = essentially weighing my already lard ass down so I cannot enjoy the outdoors

[drater]

You fuckin' pansies should just free solo all alpine climbs. Then you don't have to deal with your dumfuck partner or the rack. Simple, eh? Most people don't climb harder than 5.10 in the mountains anyway. This means that whatever is being climbed is less than vertical & a fall is going to result in you getting hurt. Couple this with the fact that you're probably way the fuck out in the boonies & you have the makings of a proper epic. Better just to solo it, then if you fall you don't have to deal with a rescue epic. Which takes a lot more time than re-racking a bunch of crap every 100'. Told you it was simple. Flame on.

 

BB

[SnowByrd]

Theres some good info here....could you guys put some of this in the thread I just started in the Newbies forum? Thanks!!

[slothrop]

Use this, SnowByrd:

and copy the text yourself. Or link to this thread. Even newbies know how to click a link.