Greg_W Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Both of these individuals fell on badly placed pro. Both these individuals had no business placing pro and leading where they did. Yet, everyone heralds Goran and many people slammed Anna. People lambasted Anna's belayer, Patrick, for letting her lead. Did anyone give Erden shit for letting Goran lead a climb he was not experienced enough to lead on rock that takes tricky pro? (This based on what I gleaned from Mike Gauthier's article in R&I) I don't think so. Both Goran and Anna did something really stupid; the only difference is Goran's stupidity got him a dirt nap. Why the double standard? It's all bullshit. Greg Quote
lummox Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 werent there something bout a pilots sayin a good landing is one you can walk away from and a GREAT one being one where you can fly the plane again? to extend that metaphor anna be a good climber. maybe a great one. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 i'm sure this was hashed out in the previous thread, but i think that her business was her business... plenty of us have done way riskier thins in our careers... climbing is serious... especially when you push yourself... i commend anna for trying something hard... was it the right decision? who cares. she was climbing. she took a risk. that is what climbing is about... mabe you disagree tho. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 trask said: anna has nice hooters ^^ that too... ( that was my main reason) Quote
erik Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 poor thought on that fency... in climbing you certainly take risks, but they should be educated and calculated risks. if you do not understand the mechanics of climbing, then maybe even if you are pushing yourself you are asking for it..... think son, think!!!! Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 erik said: poor thought on that fency... in climbing you certainly take risks, but they should be educated and calculated risks. if you do not understand the mechanics of climbing, then maybe even if you are pushing yourself you are asking for it..... think son, think!!!! mabe i overestimate anna's abilities then... if that is the case...kropp and anna are not comparable... but i assumed she had at least some experience... Quote
fern Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 if Anna had been the one belaying and shredmaximus had cratered would she have been lambasted for "letting" him climb? Was Erden the more experienced climber in that partnership and thus in a position to vet Goran's decisions? There are so many hypotheticals and ifs to your question it's not just apples and oranges it's a whole fruit salad. Generally we don't start spraying negatively about people who just died and their surviving partners who are obviously very distraught and irrational. The Kropp thread came on the heels of the actual accident when there was still a lot of confusion and shock. The Anna thread came on a few months after her incident when she brought it up herself. Quote
thelawgoddess Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 fern ... the gentler, kinder side of cc.com. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 my two cents... PUT IN GEAR THAT IS GOOD BEFORE YOU PUSH YOURSELF WITH THE CLIMBING...if you do not KNOW that your gear placing is adequate, you'd better stay on TR...and leave the leading for someone who knows whats up... I'm not talking about the psycological aspect...i'm talking about physics and engineering...plain and simple.... and for pete's sake, don't run it out...that is what got Goran killed, shit, some of the gear held so well he broke it...put in more than you need when you are starting, and tons of it right off the belay...you can think of it as stamina training or something to rationalize not being a wuss...I think Retro hit this in another thread... And Fence...if you think/know your partner is not up to it...you'd better tell them... Ever haul a broken person out? It sucks major ass...I've hauled two people out in 18 years of climbing, not partners, and they weren't killed just injured severely...both times, i had to quit for awhile...its no fun... Quote
Paco Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 dalius said: Excuse me, but who in the hell is Anna? Refer to this thread: I've been humbled Quote
iain Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 grab a bottle of scotch or something. It's a marathon read. Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 And Fence...if you think/know your partner is not up to it...you'd better tell them... i dont think that is the belayer's job... if it is... i'm quitting climbing... i am there for my safety... i expect my partners to be honest as per their limitations... me and paco had a good oconvo about this... usually when you get to the bottom of a route... the truth comes out... if you have to sorry about your partner's limitations, you need a new partner... Quote
minx Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 gotta second all those that are preaching caution and educated risk here. pushing yourself beyond your limits in a lot of sports isn't going to get you killed, it will in climbing. We all will make mistakes but always minimize the risk. back in the daze when i rode competively, i saw one friend killed taking an unnecessary risk and riding far above her level and another seriously injured riding something she had no business doing. Both very unnecessary risks by people "pushing their limits" There was room in between getting herself killed and her previous limit. I desperately wish she had chosen to find the intermediate level. Shook me up for years witnessing that. that said...except those who were there, no one posting here is doing anything other than speculating regarding the circumstances. Be careful to judge the actions of others. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 (edited) FUCKING DOUBLE POST Edited June 10, 2003 by RuMR Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 " dont think that is the belayer's job... if it is... i'm quitting climbing... i am there for my safety... i expect my partners to be honest as per their limitations... me and paco had a good oconvo about this... usually when you get to the bottom of a route... the truth comes out... if you have to sorry about your partner's limitations, you need a new partner... " You ever haul someone out? That is the most selfish thing i can think of! You'd actually let someone do something when you had knowledge of an impending disaster?????? WTF! I hope that if i'm doing something outside my abilities, where my life is in danger, that my partner had the goddammed ballz to say something to me, despite my pride...Then, if i choose to proceed, fine...but to not say something... How the fuck would you feel explaining to the family of that person that "Gee, i thought it was a bit beyond him/her, and he/she wasn't all that solid, but THEY wanted the challenge, so i didn't say anything!!" That is the stupidest thing that i can comprehend... Quote
thelawgoddess Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 it may be stupid, but i don't think it's that easy. people have different levels of risk that they feel comfortable with, and people have different levels of risk that they like to operate at as well. some people think they're solid leads if they can get up a climb even with taking a whipper; others think they're only solid leads if they can onsight it without shitting their pants. it's hard to tell what your partner's like until you've climbed with them sometimes. but yeah; i agree that choosing your partner wisely and having a good partnership are key. i like people that aren't afraid to back off of climbs. Quote
erik Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 tho if you dont know what you are doing it matters little what your level of risk is. you must know the mechanics of climbing to so it safely wheter you are in excellent physical shape or not.... sometimes things happen out of your control...... Quote
Szyjakowski Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 as backes said "Lose the fear and DIE!" Everyone can push themselves along that thin line but, going over that line and coming back is a learned skill via experience and time. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 sorry, but it is that easy, if i think somebody is about to do something and is not conscious of the danger that they are about to engage, i will say something...for my own peace of mind... Its a different animal if its a conscious decision where factors have been weighed...i keep my mouth shut and hold the rope...but that is only with someone whose climbing/judgement I KNOW...so that goes w/o saying that they will have considered what they are about to do... Death on this planet and in this life is final... Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 erik said: tho if you dont know what you are doing it matters little what your level of risk is. you must know the mechanics of climbing to so it safely wheter you are in excellent physical shape or not.... sometimes things happen out of your control...... bingo! Erik gets the prize for the day...if you don't know what you're doing, how can you expect to be able to "assess risk"??? I hope someone who does know would say something... Quote
kitten Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 It is best to have someone patient to teach you the mechanics and priciples of climbing. Be honest about your abilities and never lose the fear. Thanks Jamn! Quote
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