catbirdseat Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 If all you have for protection is a placement behind a weak flake that might break off in a fall, and you have a choice between a nut and a cam, which piece is less likely to pry off the flake, the nut or the cam? Assume that the nut cannot be slotted, but rather must be wedged. The former would obviously exert less outward force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Natural Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 the nut but only if you really need it. what is the difference between slotted and wedged nuts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 probly nut... but you should move up a few feet to a better place ment, or place a peice lower and just run it out a bit if the fall is clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 How about a tri-cam? More range than a nut (for the flexies), but not the 3 to 1 of a cam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 yes I'd rather take my chances on a larger fall than a shorter fall shared by a large flake of rock thank you. but wait, if the rock pulled you'd fall the same distance anyway. so double-up below and climb through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakioawa Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 No question, a BIG cam. The dynamic forces caused by a nut and cam are just about the same (it depends on the cam angle and the angle of the nut). But if the flake shifts, there is a much greater chance a cam will open up and hold the fall. A nut will likely pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot'teryx Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Can someone grab my cam on Sonic Boom next time your up at Trundle Dome? It's stuck in the flake, as it got pushed way back somehow after I placed it, and then overcammed. I'll buy you a beer if you can get it out. But it's just a Trango Flexcam #3 (BD .5?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 What is a slotted nut versus a wedged one? When slotted, the nut butts against the rock with the snout. The sides don't even need to contact the rock. It's trapped. The angle between the sides of the nut causes an outward force that can be many times the force applied to the piece, depending on the friction of the rock and how well the piece is placed. If all you have is a marginal placement you'd obviously want to get another piece in at the first opportunity. The decision to climb past and not place would depend on how hard the climbing was and whether you had a restful stance or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 hakioawa said: No question, a BIG cam. The dynamic forces caused by a nut and cam are just about the same (it depends on the cam angle and the angle of the nut). But if the flake shifts, there is a much greater chance a cam will open up and hold the fall. A nut will likely pop. Good point. Flakes can move without breaking off. The cam can expand to maintain contact whereas the nut is more limited. But the question rephrased was, "which piece exerts the most outward pressure?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 when in doubt run it out .... how much time & energy are you willing to waste trying to figure out which would work better on a flake you already feel will probaly fail anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 the decision to climb past is directly proportional to the rpm or sewing machine leg / by the size of cahones in su pantalones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 good point wdiet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 catbirdseat said: But the question rephrased was, "which piece exerts the most outward pressure?" Anyone have time to digest this today and run the calcs to answer CBS question? web page And if you finish up the calculations on the cams vs nuts while contemplating your gear placement, you may want to follow up with this one: web page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Iain said: yes I'd rather take my chances on a larger fall than a shorter fall shared by a large flake of rock thank you. but wait, if the rock pulled you'd fall the same distance anyway. so double-up below and climb through I'm with iain. If I think the expansion force created by a piece of gear might cause the rock to break off, I won't risk it. The damage that the broken off rock could do to: me, the belayer, the rope, etc. is to great. But I would say that cams create a greater expansion force, or leverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 CBS, buy some screamers. They are load limiting devices for marginal placements. Also I recommend not placing pieces (nuts or cams)behind things that look like they will probably calve off and kill or incapacitate your belayer. If your assessment is might kill your belayer, then I think the differential between cam and nut wedging forces is much smaller than the margin of error involved in your risk assessment. That is, there is no practical difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 I have some screamers for ice climbing, but have not yet used them on a rock climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I have had 1 friend lose a finger because of weighting a cam placed behind a loose block, and another friend have as close a call as you can imagine when he fell on a cam and pulled off a block about 3 times his size and fell with it. Don't put gear behind loose flakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 catbirdseat said: If all you have for protection is a placement behind a weak flake that might break off in a fall, and you have a choice between a nut and a cam, which piece is less likely to pry off the flake, the nut or the cam? Depends on the flake Thin flake = all force on small area of nut = more likely to break flake Thick flake = cam exerts more outward and less downward force = more likely to expand flake You could always just run it out In general, this question is more on the order of: if you are screwed, how bad are you screwed? We can ask more like that: If you are climbing Pipeline, and all you have are RP's, what should you do? If you are iceclimbing and drop both tools, 50' above your last screw, and 90' above the ground, with 30' to go to a tree, can you use your fingernails? If you are accidentaly retrobolting DDD and get caught by Mitch Merriman, should you pray or run? If you accidentally log on as Trask and find a new PM from minx in your inbox, should you a) open it or b) open it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 haven't you ever stacked RP's? sheesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted June 2, 2003 Author Share Posted June 2, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 as a good canadian you should ask yourself: what would brian boytano do? place this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 glassgowkiss said: as a good canadian you should ask yourself: what would brian boytano do? place this Post of the DAY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 glassgowkiss said: as a good canadian you should ask yourself: what would brian boytano do? place this You tie that thing off or spear it with your cleaning tool and clip it? The blood clotting might increase the sticking power.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 glassgowkiss said: as a good canadian you should ask yourself: what would brian boytano do? place this USA Men's Standing Volleyball Team Finishes Fifth at World Championships WISLA, Poland (Oct. 11, 2002) ? The USA men?s national standing volleyball team rebounded from a tough 3-2 quarterfinal loss to eventual silver medallist Poland on Wednesday to win its final two matches and finish fifth at the 2002 Standing Volleyball World Championships. In the fifth-place match Friday against the Czech Republic, Team USA emerged with a 27-25, 25-18, 25-16 victory. With the win, the United States finished the tournament with a record of 3-3. Canada finished the tournament with a perfect 6-0 record after defeating Poland in the gold-medal match, 3-1 (25-17, 18-25, 25-18, 25-15). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 sweet and how's the badmiton national team shaping up this year? bet they kick trinidad/tobago's ass again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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