Stuart Lake Epic

[MounTAIN_Woman]

Jim B, Jeff H, and I hiked up to Stuart Lake to attempt Mountaineer Peak, a peak that John Roper climbed and gave Jeff some beta for. After looking at the proposed climb, I decided that I would rather catch rays on a rock by the still frozen lake. The two took off across the lake for the peak. I could watch almost their entire ascent from my vantage point, but later on I took a walk around the South shore to get a different vantage point of the decidedly steep couloir they were climbing. I saw what appeared to be two figures on the summit, and when I saw them in the couloir on their way down, I decided to head back to my rock and get my pack together. I thought about hiking back over to where they began the climb and walk back with them, but decided against it, as I was a bit tired. I was sitting on the rock, when just 25 feet to my left, I hear a slight splash and some grunting barks. Two otters surfaced up out of the icy slush and onto the surface of the ice, looking at me and barking that strange grunting bark. I took some pictures. They dove back into the water and disappeared. I watched the guys descend, and once down to the base of the couloir, they disappeared behind the trees. After some time, I saw them across the lake preparing to head across. I watched them cross, nervous the whole time. Jeff was out ahead, and as he approached my rock, crack, whoosh! He was in! My worst fear was playing out in front of me. The water was over six feet deep there, which was strange because it was so close to the shore. Jim was still on the lake when he saw Jeff go down. Jeff was able to move a little closer to me, and I extended the end of my ski pole, which had a self-arrest grip onto which he was able to get a good grip. I pulled in gently, but he lost his grip once, and then quickly regained it. I eased him closer to the rock, and he scrambled up and was out of the water. Cold and wet, he stripped off most of the wet layers and replaced them with drier clothing from his pack.

 

I turned my attention to Jim, who was wondering where to go at this point. He was still a good 20 feet from where Jeff went in, and knew that going in that direction was not an option. So he took a few steps toward the shore away from the direction of Jeff's travel, and whoosh! Jim was in! Unfortunately, Jim was out of reach of my poles. Jeff and I stood there helplessly watching Jim try to mantle back up onto the thin ice, only to have it break off underneath him. He had his poles with him, and used them to help get him prone on the ice layer, and after what seemed like forever, he clawed at the ice using his hands, as the poles were gone at this point, and managed to roll up onto better ice. It supported his weight! He continued to roll toward the thicker ice and stood up. We suggested he go back the way he came, and work toward the north shore, where the ice was thicker, and just hike around the lake end from there. We would hike over and meet him after he got safely on shore. Once Jim was safely on shore, Jeff and I high-tailed it around to where we could see Jim across the outlet stream. One more obstacle - crossing the outlet stream. He found a good crossing on a snow-covered log jam. I walked out partway to meet him. Everyone was on solid ground, finally! Each of them probably only spent a maximum of 30 seconds in the water, but in that short time they felt their body heat being sucked out of them. It seemed to me like they were in the water a lot longer. Jeff took a bearing and navigated over to the trail from the outlet stream. He was spot on! Once on the trail, we could finally just concentrate on getting to the cars and dinner. Conversation was minimal on the hike out. It was hard not to keep replaying the events and create all sorts of what-ifs and unpleasant scenarios. But everyone was so happy to be safe in the parking lot by our trusty rigs, that we felt free to think about more mundane things like what to have for dinner.

[Dwayner]

Your buddies be lucky to be alive. A lot of people don't think enough about that sort of thing. I fell through the ice in Snow Lake several years ago on my way up to do a one-day solo traverse of the Enchantments in early May (up via Snow Lakes and down Aasgard). I was following snowshoe tracks along the very edge of the Lake (thus avoiding the logs in the woods). The tracks stayed straight and crossed a little bay and I continued to follow them. That's when the ice broke. The water was about 8 feet deep and I felt like I shot out of there like a cork and I busted my way toward shore. Soaking wet from icy water, I ran back to a campsite, awoke some sleeping hikers and demanded some hot food and drinks which they made and then I ran the 7 miles or so back to the parking lot to keep warm. Icy lakes.....don't trust them!

 

- Dwayner

[allthumbs]

Dwayner,

 

I took my daughter for a walk up to Lk. 22 and some dumb pilgrim was throwing a stick out onto the melting ice for his mutt to retrieve. I wanted to say something but you know how words of advice are generally taken. Sure enough, the mutt fell through....after a mighty struggle the pouch barely managed to pull itself out. The pilgrim looked rather ashen, and left the scene post haste.

 

trask

[klenke]

MWoman:

 

Your story gave me a little scenario thought concerning two people crossing an iffy frozen lake:

The first person falls in. That's unexpected and therefore cannot really be avoided. But the second person, still out from the shore, should proabably get on his/her stomach and inch/slither his/her way to shore. In so doing, he/she can distribute the weight over more ice surface area. Hmmm. Maybe it'd work. Maybe not.

 

Glad to hear you made it back to the cars w/o further incident.

[JoshK]

Wow, glad to hear everything turned out alright.

 

At the risk of sounding like a complete idiot, what do you mean by "otters" in stuart lake? I though they were an ocean species?

[Norman_Clyde]

River otters, a distinct species from Sea otters.

[Dru]

and on snow creek wall they'd be spaceotters

[MounTAIN_Woman]

I got a few pictures of the otters. I'll attach the better of them. Too bad my zoom couldn't bring them in closer.

[Dru]

i was at deception pass once and saw some otters attack and kill a couple of merganser ducks. those things can eat a duck in about two bites. it was cool.

 

otters: the super snaffle?

 

nice pic Mtn Woman.

[Juneriver]

water

[allthumbs]

Dru said:

i was at deception pass once and saw some otters attack and kill a couple of merganser ducks. those things can eat a duck in about two bites. it was cool.

 

otters: the super snaffle?

 

nice pic Mtn Woman.

 

yeah, they're out here too. they swim under the ducks and pull them under. you should see how fast they can open clams shells too.

[catbirdseat]

It seems intuitive that ice should be thicker and therefore safer close to shore, but in mountain lakes this is not always the case. The moving water from inlet streams and to a lesser extent outlet streams cause disturbances that thin the ice in their vicinity. Sometimes it is safer in the center of the lake.

[lummox]

fuckin classic. too bad yur friend lost his poles.

[fleblebleb]

I fell through slush on Nada Lake last year. My buddy almost got hysterical, it was super funny. We just kept on hiking though, warms you up right away. I remember being annoyed by my wet pants though.

 

Falling into these mountain lakes isn't such a big deal, getting out is largely a matter of swimming onto the ice, but falling through ice on stream water will likely drown you. Scaryness.

[Dru]

catbirdseat said:

It seems intuitive that ice should be thicker and therefore safer close to shore, but in mountain lakes this is not always the case. The moving water from inlet streams and to a lesser extent outlet streams cause disturbances that thin the ice in their vicinity. Sometimes it is safer in the center of the lake.

 

please explain why this is "intuitive" dummy. ever seen a lake freeze? it freezes from the inside out. and it melts from the perimeter too.

[fleblebleb]

Shut up Dru. You don't know a thing you're talking about. This is all discussed in FOTH 7th Ed. Chapter 13, Travel on Frozen Lakes. Do your homework before you open your mouth.

[JoshK]

I pee in any alpine lake first to test it's safety for crossing.

[klenke]

Just ordinary thermodynamics stuff....

 

Except for proximity to the outlets and inlets themselves, I think the fact that lakes thaw out faster at their borders has more to do with heat transfer (heat conduction from warmer ground to colder water) than from water currents under the ice (where convection and advection [one-way fluid flow] would increase the heat transfer characteristics over that of conduction alone). This would especially be true if the shore is rocky, since rock can have a high specific heat compared to water. Out in the middle there just is no comparatively strong 'heat source' underneath.

 

When ice forms on a lake, etc., it generally starts at the borders (at the shores) because at this time the cold ground is inducing a freeze state on a stagnant or semi-stagnant liquid surface. The freezing progresses outwards until the whole of the lake is frozen. But, and this is unproven or uninvestigated on my part, once the whole of the lake is frozen over, the middle regions would grow (thicken) quicker than the shore. And thus, from a purely rate-based analysis, since the shore is thinner than the middle regions over the course of a winter, it will melt back to a liquid (to that of 'leads' in the ice, if that be the case) at an earlier time in the spring.

 

I reserve the right to modify or take back anything I've said in the foregoing as I think about it more.

 

=Klenke, the unemployed Thermal Engineer (if the foregoing is hogwash, maybe this is why I'm unemployed).

 

[Dru]

klenke

 

when you see lake freeze

it is usually frozen in the middle before the shore freezes

 

up to a certain size anyhow

 

i'll let you figure the size

 

but the center of the lake has maximum sky view

hence greatest black body radiation at night

and cools fastest

[klenke]

The radiation thing you said makes absolute sense. And yes, that would cause ice to form at the center first (what I said before about it starting at the fringes didn't sit well with me before). This would explain how the ice gets to be thicker in the middle of the lake than at the shore AND how the shore then thereby melts out quicker during the spring warming phase. That is the rate-based analysis where all ice surfaces melt at the same speed (thus the thinner fringes return to the liquid state quicker). Conduction from a warm ground and added convection/advection at outlets and inlets would accelerate the thaw process.

 

To Dru:

[Dru]

yeah thx

 

i think it has also to due with thermal radiation from surrounding trees

 

same effect that melts tree wells.

 

in high elevation and arctic lakes

 

the middle does melt out first sometimes

 

when there is a lot of ice blown up on the beach by the wind

 

and as for melting lakes, this should say it all

 

 

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Frozen looking lake at mid may. No brainer for me to just take the easy walk around.

[David_Parker]

Thanks Klenke, I agree with most you said or at least came to same conclusion yesterday at Colchuck Lake. On the approach, we were not inclined to walk across the lake as I immediately broke through at the edge as I tested it. We ended up postholing around which pretty much sucked. On the way back, and after reaching same conclusion you wrote, that only the perimeter was thin, I ventured out. Colchuck lake is very thick still only 30 ft out from the edge. We were very cautious as we approached the edge to get off, but managed without incident. Of course skis always help distribute the weight, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to fall in with skis on!

[micajones]

You'd have to swim now to get on the ice. It's about 25 feet of water from the ice to shore around Stuart as of Sunday.

 

I didn't see no damn otters either.

 

But I did see a dude draggin' his wife and two kids up there over the snow in tennies and shorts. Mom didn't look too happy about dad's enthusiasm. As I passed 'em, I heard her begging him to turn around. He replied someting about the biggest single chunk of granite in the US, and how they would all regret it the rest of thier lives if they turned around now. Total Chevy Chase bent on Wally World. Freakin' hilarious man.