Fence_Sitter Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Ursa_Eagle said: trask said: Ursa_Eagle said: Trask: You're ignoring the fact that THEY LIED This is not about present or future. This is about past and actions that have already taken place. as I've said before, PROVE IT As I've said before, they've proven it by not providing the evidence they based their justification for war on. and as i said before you sound like dan - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa_Eagle Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Bush made a claim and failed to produce evidence. I haven't been following the Dan saga, but it seems that people aren't believing his evidence. "You have WMD, and you have to prove that you don't or we'll come attack you" Now who sounds like Dan -? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 you...there was a treaty with iraq similar to the treaty of versialles wich require d iraq to prove that they didn't have these weapons and also to register plastics, and otehr industrial plants. The U.S. has aready proven taht they haven' t done this...the burden of proof ws on them ....we took the burden of proof on ourselves...you want teh answers now...well her eit is..we have already found iraq to be in violation of the treaty... it has barely been a month since the war has stopped and their is still looting in the streets... you expect a country the size of iraq to be able to be searched in less than a month while there is civil disorder? no f-in way...GIVE IT TIME... i could follow your line of reasoning and ask for proof that i am not lying that you have not proof that i have no proof that you have no proof...but that would be silly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Ursa_Eagle said: trask said: Ursa_Eagle said: Trask: You're ignoring the fact that THEY LIED This is not about present or future. This is about past and actions that have already taken place. as I've said before, PROVE IT As I've said before, they've proven it by not providing the evidence they based their justification for war on. as i've said before, and this is the last time i'm saying it...we may have the evidence right now and are not releasing it to the press for whatever reason. hold your fucking horses and get it a little time. shit, we're still pulling out of the country for chrissakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Ursa_Eagle said: trask said: Ursa_Eagle said: Trask: You're ignoring the fact that THEY LIED This is not about present or future. This is about past and actions that have already taken place. as I've said before, PROVE IT As I've said before, they've proven it by not providing the evidence they based their justification for war on. Actually Mr. Eagle, Iraq had claimed the amounts of biological weapons with the UN that (Dubya said) in 1992 when the weapons inspectors were there. The justification for war was based on Iraq not supplying evidence that they destroyed what they claimed they had. It was up to the the Iraqi government to prove the weapons were destroyed. Those weapons in 1992 just didn't disappear. There has to be residual effects, like, "If you destroyed them, where did you bury the residue." Ask MtnGoat. He knows the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa_Eagle Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 what part of "we have proof that they have WMD", and then not providing said proof do you not understand? "we have proof, but we need to find it first"? The point being they didn't have the proof when they made those statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 STFU you hippie hairpie moron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 i assume that it is sattelite imagry... you know...WMDhave capability for mobility...therefore...if they saw them on sattelite imagry and then they moved...they would opnly have the proof that they were in iraq during that time period...there are many other options... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 blah blah bla Bush Clinton WMD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Fence Sitter - Still you refuse to address remarks that I believe are proven to have been lies at the time they were stated to the UN. There never was any purchase of weapons grade material form Africa and our government at least knew that the evidence for that purchase was shakey and almost certainly knew the documents were false. Is what you mean to say that they may have lied to the UN but it doesn't matter because, in the end, you know that they lied for the right reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 matt, are you drunk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030512/17/dzrf1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 i never said that... i was addressing ursa's point... as for the document... the 'higher ups' didn't know it was invalid as far as i am aware..the creators did for sure... do you really think bush would have a clue as to what goes on in africa as per illegal arms sale? i dont believe he knew...i am opedn to the fact that it is a possiblity that he knew (which is more than i can say for the lib. on this board about clinton's premtive strike lies) but i cannot say that he lied without proof....the same proof you are asking for from bush... shit i have ADd and i can wait longer than you chaps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I have said several times that I would not be surprised if they find something, Mr. Fence. But I do think they were lying to the public and the UN - repeatedly - in their efforts to win support for the war. At this stage that may not matter in as far as the most important thing now is to be sure that Afghanistan and Iraq are able to move ahead toward improved political and economic life and hopefully the future governments there will end up being more friendly to the West and the Moslems of the world will not see us, in hindsite, as infidel invaders who should face retaliation by suicide bombers for the next generation or two. However, I believe we have seen a clear example of how Bush and his cronies will lie to get us into a war. I believe this undermines our credibility and I do not think the ends justify the means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 mattp said: I have said several times that I would not be surprised if they find something, Mr. Fence. But I do think they were lying to the public and the UN - repeatedly - in their efforts to win support for the war. At this stage that may not matter in as far as the most important thing now is to be sure that Afghanistan and Iraq are able to move ahead toward improved political and economic life and hopefully the future governments there will end up being more friendly to the West and the Moslems of the world will not see us, in hindsite, as infidel invaders who should face retaliation by suicide bombers for the next generation or two. However, I believe we have seen a clear example of how Bush and his cronies will lie to get us into a war. I believe this undermines our credibility and I do not think the ends justify the means. DOESN'T ANYBODY REMEMBER???? IT WAS IRAQ THAT HAD TO PROVE THEY DESTROYED THEIR WMD--PER THE UN MANDATE 1441!!!! IRAQ DID NOT PROVE THEY DESTROYED THEM, AND GEORGE WAS SICK AND TIRED OF SADDAM'S GAMES, SO GEORGE AND HIS CRONIES INVADED!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 tru dat stephen- i said that earlier how Bush and his cronies will lie to get us into a war likewise how clinton and his cronies will do the same with even less motivation... clearly you are tryoing to make this a partisan matter (which it is not)...by implying cronies...you are stating republicans...i am not one, but i do feel that it is far too early to start writing the history of the 2nd conflict in iraq... give it a bit more than 3 weeks eh? hell they are still fighting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 trask said: STFU you hippie hairpie moron If you bother to talk politics with this group, expect to get this sort of treatment on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Some classic Bush quotes: I don't bring God into my life to -- to, you know, kind of be a political person. -- interview with Tom Brokaw aboard Air Force One, April 24, 2003 We're fighting an enemy ... that will wear civilian uniforms.... -- Washington, DC, March 25, 2003 ...If we use military force, in the post-Saddam Iraq the UN will definitely need to have a role. And that way it can begin to get its legs, legs of responsibility back. -- Lajes, Azores, March 16, 2003 We appreciate our own support for ensuring that the just demands of the world are enforced. -- Washington, DC, March 13, 2003 I know there's some concern about overstating of numbers, you know, invest in my company because the sky's the limit. We may not be cash flowing much, but the sky's the limit. Well, when you pay dividends, that sky's the limit business doesn't hunt. -- Kennesaw, GA, February 20, 2003 ...[A]s we insist that Congress be wise with your money, we're going to make sure we spend enough to win this war. And by spending enough to win a war, we may not have a war at all. -- Kennesaw, Georgia, February 20, 2003 So today I ask you to challenge your listeners ... to start a ministry, which will find the children of those who are incarcinated and love them. -- Addressing the National Religious Broadcasters' Convention, Opryland Hotel, Nashville, TN, February 10, 2003. The quote was cleaned up before the speech was posted on the White House web site. I believe we can achieve peace at home.... -- Washington, DC, January 30, 2003 Should any Iraqi officer or soldier receive an order from Saddam Hussein or his sons or any of the killers who occupy the high levels of their government, my advice is don't follow that order. If you choose to do so, when Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and persecuted as a war criminal. -- St. Louis, MO, January 22, 2003 I'm the person who gets to decide, not you. -- reacting to a reporter's statement in the lead-in to his question that "we're headed to war in Iraq," Crawford, TX, December 31, 2002 I had a cordial meeting at that meeting last night. We greeted each other, cordially. -- Prague, Czech Republic, November 21, 2002 One of the problems we have is that enough people can't find work in America. -- Bentonville, AR, November 4, 2002 The solid truth of the matter is, when you find -- if you want to help heal the hurt -- if you want to hurt people and help people in pain, the best way to do so is to call upon the great strength of the country, which is the compassion of our fellow Americans. -- Bentonville, AR, November 4, 2002 Discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Bush is a pea-brained moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Fuck I've had a headache all day, and now it's gonna last all night too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 pauvre bebe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 GEORGE WAS SICK AND TIRED OF SADDAM'S GAMES, SO GEORGE AND HIS CRONIES INVADED!!!!!! this is precisely the problem. dubya and neocons argued for clear and imminent danger to our country to justify military agression over diplomacy. nothing that is going to be "found" will be enough to show a clear and imminent threat to the US. IT IS OVER because any future "find" will at best show a low level and decrepit program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 i found the truth!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: clearly you are tryoing to make this a partisan matter (which it is not)...by implying cronies...you are stating republicans...i am not one, but i do feel that it is far too early to start writing the history of the 2nd conflict in iraq... give it a bit more than 3 weeks eh? hell they are still fighting! Actually, I "said" cronies and you think I was "implying" Republicans. But you misunderstand me here if you think I am suggesting I believe in the Democrats. I certainly don't like the Republican party and I disagree with just about everything they stand for, but I think the Democrats are a bunch of spineless politicians that show no signs of leadership whatever. The point of this discussion, however, is that Bush, Powell, Cheney, and their gang, along with the conservative talk show hosts, think-tank denizens and other associated cheerleaders, are shameless liars. They lied about why we went into Iraq and, although I wouldn't be surprised if they found WMD there, I would be equally NOT surprised if they made up false evidence and lied about finding them. In my eyes and, I believe in the eyes of the rest of the world, our administion has zero credibility.* You are correct that we don't yet know what they may find there, and it is too soon to tell how things are going to end up. We can, however, make judgments about events that took place in the run-up to the war. They lied. Plain and simple. History may or may not show that invading Iraq was the right choice but I believe that unless someone completely re-writes history, we will not find that they were telling the truth when they offered the "evidence" discussed above. *Funny thing about the term "credibility." The war mongers have been redefining the word by saying that "credibility" has nothing to do with being thought to speak the truth, but that our credibility lies in being though so completely irrational that we would launch an attack with little or no justification if someone doesn't do what we say. Like I said, war is peace. Lies are truth. And credibility is madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 hmm...4,000 pop-ups that must be the answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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