snoboy Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Sloth_Man said: I think the subjectiveness of grades doesn't get enough attention. I've seen a lot of taller guys reach right past hard spots then come away saying the climb was 5.whatever. But I know it was harder for me, and yet still gets the same 5. whatever grade. Cracks are really subjective. I'm good at wedging stubby body parts into cracks, but if you're small or boney a crack I think is easy could be real hard. Small cracks are the worst. For me every finger crack is 5.impossible, but for a girl the same crack might be more doable. For example the Incredible (not-a)handcrack was real hard for me, but someone with smaller hands would get killer jams and call it 'not to bad'. Yeah grades are subjective, but they're like colors. Sure you're green might be my orange, but as long as we agree to call it green then everythings Ok. It doesn't matter so much what the objective truth is as much as where we fit in to the scheme of things so we can avoid getting in over our head. Discuss. I think sometimes it is good to be tall, and other times it is bad. This means that really grades should even out in the end because they are supposed to concensus grades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Do you mean consensus If you have good technique, your height will not matter. Except if you are short and have really big fingers, and lets say, a minus 9 ape index, then it sucks to be you. But the one-armed climber doesnt get to say "That 5.8 is 5.11c for ME" so why should you just because you are tall/ fat/ whatever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 5.whatever equals 5.whatever regardless ... but is my experience on a 5.whatever harder than yours by some objective measure? this is the boring unanswerable question I want catbirdseat to tell everyone his fractal theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted May 14, 2003 Author Share Posted May 14, 2003 I want fern to explain the binary grading system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 its all 5.sent until you fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 fern said: 5.whatever equals 5.whatever regardless ... but is my experience on a 5.whatever harder than yours by some objective measure? this is the boring unanswerable question I want catbirdseat to tell everyone his fractal theory. Fractal geometry is found throughout nature. It is found in the trees, in water courses and in rock faces. If you extend fractal geometry to rock climbing the reasoning goes like this. As the scale decreases, the number of big holds decrease, but the number of small holds increases. A smaller climber can make use of smaller holds than a larger climber. Therefore, ON AVERAGE, the larger climber does not have an advantage over the smaller climber. The net number of USABLE holds is the same. That isn't to say that on a given route the moves might not be easier for a tall climber than for a short one. This is because routes are not chosen AT RANDOM, but are selected by a climber of a given height. A route pioneered by a short climber, especially with small fingers might be found to be more difficult by taller climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaston_Lagaffe Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 All I have to say is that no matter how early in my life I would have started to climb, and no matter how hard I would have trained, I would NEVER be able to free the Nose like a certain Miss Hill. A heigh difference of 1.5 feet is of zero help. At the same time a person with smaller hands is able to use holds that are just too small for my fingers. That's one of the things that I love about climbing, My 5'2" friend can send routes I can't, and I can send routes she can't. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 its all roped up bouldering.... SHeesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 but without sit starts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Dru said: but without sit starts DOH! sorry i forgot that part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Dru said: but without sit starts What? Didn't you get the memo? If you ain't been sit startin' you ain't been getting the send. Back to the crags, slack-a-nadian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Szyjakowski said: Dru said: but without sit starts DOH! sorry i forgot that part Maybe you just need some more creativity. You could probably get sit starts on pitches that begin on a ledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Off_White said: Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Actually, I don't think that fractal geometry explains the ability of ants to walk on walls and their relative strength. The wall walking has to do with their weight relative to surface area. Strength has more to do with having an exoskeleton and being small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 ehmmic said: Szyjakowski said: Dru said: but without sit starts DOH! sorry i forgot that part Maybe you just need some more creativity. You could probably get sit starts on pitches that begin on a ledge. Every pitch that has a hanging belay below it is a sit start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 catbirdseat said: Off_White said: Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Actually, I don't think that fractal geometry explains the ability of ants to walk on walls and their relative strength. The wall walking has to do with their weight relative to surface area. Strength has more to do with having an exoskeleton and being small. So are lizards just really strong compared to their weight? and what about those crazy moves I've seen snaffles do near the bases of climbs? Maybe they have secret practice sessions to impress us "real" climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 ehmmic said: catbirdseat said: Off_White said: Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Actually, I don't think that fractal geometry explains the ability of ants to walk on walls and their relative strength. The wall walking has to do with their weight relative to surface area. Strength has more to do with having an exoskeleton and being small. So are lizards just really strong compared to their weight? and what about those crazy moves I've seen snaffles do near the bases of climbs? Maybe they have secret practice sessions to impress us "real" climbers. Those are not likely true snaffles. I think they are another similar breed. I made friends with one while dropping some Bart Simpson and chuggin whisky then he lead up City Park free for me. I still couldn't free it though. I'll work on it next time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Szyjakowski Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 ehmmic said: catbirdseat said: Off_White said: Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Actually, I don't think that fractal geometry explains the ability of ants to walk on walls and their relative strength. The wall walking has to do with their weight relative to surface area. Strength has more to do with having an exoskeleton and being small. So are lizards just really strong compared to their weight? and what about those crazy moves I've seen snaffles do near the bases of climbs? Maybe they have secret practice sessions to impress us "real" climbers. have you seen GOATS move on stone.. Shitdamn I want their rubber on my feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Great topic My two cents: Overhanging Faces =better be short Overhanging cracks = doesn't matter Vertical faces = better to be tall Slabs = better to be tall limestone = better to be short granite = usually better to be tall hard offwidthing = better to be smaller snow slogging = better to be tall extreme high altitude = better to be small Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Jens said: Slabs = better to be tall why do you think this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 To get those just-out-of-reach potato-chip edges with your fingernails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I think Jens is thinking of the face-climbing aspect of slab climbing. With rare exception, you do use "holds". It's just that the holds are just more sticky spots. The common move on slabs is rocking on to a hold then pressing it out. It's an advantage to be able to reach that foot further up and around. I'd think being tall would help this reach, though maybe not if the length between your knee and foot were much longer than between your hip and knee. For pure friction climbing (everything is a hold/nothing is a hold) height probably doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 maybe not if the length between your knee and foot were much longer than between your hip and knee. wha'd ya know chucK invented a new stat what do you call that, giraffe index? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Szyjakowski said: ehmmic said: catbirdseat said: Off_White said: Great theory CBS, probably explains why ants have it so much easier despite being quite short. Actually, I don't think that fractal geometry explains the ability of ants to walk on walls and their relative strength. The wall walking has to do with their weight relative to surface area. Strength has more to do with having an exoskeleton and being small. So are lizards just really strong compared to their weight? and what about those crazy moves I've seen snaffles do near the bases of climbs? Maybe they have secret practice sessions to impress us "real" climbers. have you seen GOATS move on stone.. Shitdamn I want their rubber on my feet. A friend of mine, Zoltan, once saw a small ledge break under a goat on Snow Creek Wall. The goat started to plummet (it was about 50 feet up from the base), and it turned down and RAN DOWN THE WALL!! He said it sounded like machine-gun fire, the hooves were hitting the wall so fast!! Anyway, the goat ran it out onto the base, where the front legs hit with an audible THUMP!, and then just looked around like it was no biggie... Zoltan bowed and said: "Master!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 obviously if the 'holds' are far apart then having extra reach helps. But I think an advantage to being shorter on slabs is that there is less leverage between your points of contact and your centre of gravity, also smaller fingers and feet can use more intermediate holds to good effect. dunno ... I'm pretty short but I have found many slab cruxes fairly cruisy where my taller friends have struggled a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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