allthumbs Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 It's a sad day for me and some of you communists make it all the worse. May some of you rot in hell and I piss on you from great height. Quote
Off_White Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 I'm sure she knew the deal, and she was partisan, and she was certainly no saint. By your standards I should condemn the first US military casualty as a tool of hatred, because they certainly know the deal and are partisan. Except they've got guns and she had a bullhorn. That is not my position with regards to US troops by the way, but it is the flipside of your coin. She was a non violent protester, and I don't think having burned a drawing of an American flag while in a foreign country justifies her death, which is what I took (perhaps mistook) your post to suggest. Quote
erik Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 i dunno about this whole thing. bit certainly both fairweather and offwhite make valid points.  my take on this is no person deserves to die for their convictions off peace. the israli actions in the middle east on par with some of the worst anywhere. the palestinains actions in the middle east or some of the worst anywhere. the syrians actions in the middle east are some of the worst anywhere. the xhristains actions in the middle east are some of the worst anywhere.  i am usually very passive about emotions in situations like this, but seeing those pics and reading more about it makes me sick.  there will be peace in the middle east ever. there is no innocence in the middle east.   this is an interesting link   Quote
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Look OW, Â I am sad that a young girl died. I don't know what her views/politics were prior to her enrollment at ESC, but I think that the public, and certainly the family of this young miss, should take a long, hard look at what the role of the college is. Especially the professor involved in this program. (Is this the same guy who got his class arrested in Mexico?) Â A 23 year old girl thought she was invincible and that her views were right absolute. Perhaps a professor with an agenda took advantage of that youthful exhuberance. From the looks of the photos, she hated her country (not a crime!) and wanted to express that hatred in front of children already surrounded by enough anger. I'm sorry, but she was not a peacemaker. Â I won't try to engage you re the Palestinian-Isreali conflict at this point. Needless to say, my sympathies lie (mostly) with Isreal. Â I don't think there is enough evidence at this point to judge the driver of the dozer. (Unless you want to rely solely on the testimony of her cohorts.) Â Â Â Â Quote
catbirdseat Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 fleblebleb said: Well duh, are y'all stone blind now? Dalius is obviously DFA's avatar. Excellent disguise DFA! Nope, I'll vouch for Dalius. I met him at Pub Club. Don't go spreading vicious rumors. Dalius is not DFA. Quote
iain Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 catbirdseat said: fleblebleb said: Nope, I'll vouch for Dalius. I met him at Pub Club. Don't go spreading vicious rumors. Dalius is not DFA. whew, glad we got that cleared up Quote
catbirdseat Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Fairweather said: Look OW, Â From the looks of the photos, she hated her country (not a crime!) and wanted to express that hatred in front of children already surrounded by enough anger. I'm sorry, but she was not a peacemaker. She didn't hate her country. How can you say that? She hated injustice and arbitrary actions by Isreal against innocents. Fairweather, you are so partisan you have become stone blind. You see everything through some sort of weird prism that twists and distorts everything in front of you. Quote
Fairweather Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Yea, Â and you're a portrait of neutrality. Â I don't know upon what planet you reside, but usually burning the flag of one's own country equals hatred/disdain for said nation. Â ....that's how I can say that. But regardless, you missed my point. Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 catbirdseat said: fleblebleb said: Well duh, are y'all stone blind now? Dalius is obviously DFA's avatar. Excellent disguise DFA! Nope, I'll vouch for Dalius. I met him at Pub Club. Don't go spreading vicious rumors. Dalius is not DFA. Â That sounds disturbingly like somebody else. Has anybody met this catbirdeat character in person? Other than DFA, err, Dalius that is... Maybe catbirdseat is actually thelawgoddess? OHMYGOD!!! They've never been around at the same time have they...? Â Quote
iain Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 not enough trashtalk about crystal and drytooling to be thelawgoddess Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 erik said: ban now ask questions later   Ah, clever! Try banning catbirdeat and see if either thelawgoddess comes back or Dalius gets all uppity! Quote
dalius Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Man, I leave for a little bit and all hell breaks loose 'round here. Sheesh. This is getting very tiring. ScottP said: Do you really think the US of A would be squaring off with Iraq without it. Yes, I think they would. Don't you? ScottP said: The emotional impact of 9/11 doesn't require hard physical evidence for hawkish authority figures in this country to make such a connection. Oh really. So you're saying that just because we're mad that Osama Bin Laden went and killed a bunch of Americans, we're allowed to go kill whoever we want? Really? Oh, I forgot, this is America, we can do whatever the hell we please. It's our god given right, right up there with cheap gas. Â ScottP, I was just commenting on VeggyBelay's poster stating basically something like "Move over you liberals, We'll protect America". It seemed that VeggyBelay was talking about protecting america from some attacker, that being Iraq. My only argument was that Iraq never attacked us, it was Bin Laden, and there is absolutely no connection between the two. Therefore, we can't justify using 9/11 and our emotional trauma for going and attacking Iraq. That is totally weak and lame.These are two totally seperate issues (Osama and Iraq) and should stay that way. There has never been a shred of proof that there is any link between the two, but our president and the media has done a really great job convincing the American public that there actually is!!! For some reason, nobody seems to be able to come up with any proof. Personally, I think the pres. is super embarrased that he couldn't find Osama and doesn't want to look like more of an ass, so he's drummed up some mystery evidence to link Osama to Saddam and is now using that to rally the American people to support the war in Iraq. It's worked on some people, but there are lots others, including me, that think it's bull and are still waiting for this convincing evidence. It's probably just as good as those forged documents that the US was trying to use as proof that Saddam was building nukes. Remember that? Seems to have gotten swept under the rug rather quickly eh? It's just sad that our government is so full of fucking lies and deceit and so many fucking minions walk around happy being fed this shit. Quote
Off_White Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Fairweather: Rachel Corrie was not in Israel as a part of any program at Evergreen, and was not currently enrolled at the school. I have no idea who her various faculty were, but her parents were instrumental in founding the Options program, an "alternative" elementary school (which Rachel attended as a child) that's a very popular part of the Olympia public school system. This suggests that her family is on the left end of the political spectrum (most of the people I know at that school are), but I don't actually know anything about their particular beliefs. I suspect her views & beliefs were not wholly shaped by a charismatic college professor, and the school is not implicated in her death. If Glacierdog were to die in Iraq, could Sisu (his former teacher) be held accountable? Here's a link to the offical statement from The Evergreen State College link  I have other friends who were upset to have an anti-war candlelight vigil hijacked and converted into an anti-Israel psuedo memorial for Rachel by various elements, which was neither what my friends had signed on for, nor related to the current state of affairs with regards to the situation in Iraq. The array of folks interested in peace is a much broader swath of the population than those with a particular slant on the Israel/Palestine situation. In this case, my jewish lesbian couple friends, while saddened by the young woman's death, didn't feel it was relevant to the present situation. No doubt others will take this tragedy and try to mold it to suit their agenda, probably on the right as well as the left. She was an individual, not an icon. I'm sure I would find plenty to disagree with her about, but I don't believe she did anything to merit her death.  Thanks for not getting into the Israel-Palestine business, its a terrible morass that I have very mixed feelings about, and I find Erik's description fairly apt. Peace in the middle east as a whole may well hinge on resolution of that conflict, but I won't pretend to have the answer. Both sides have real grievances, and both sides are doing terrible things. I don't even think its as coherent as "sides" but rather bits and pieces, since both main ethnicities have their own divisions and splinterings.  Anyway, peace Fairweather, I'm not mad, just tired and sad. You and I don't agree about politics, but I would be just as sad and horrified if you were beaten to death by union activists. That's not meant sarcastically by the way, but rather as an expression of humanitarian solidarity. Sleep well. Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 dalius said: Man, I leave for a little bit and all hell breaks loose 'round here. Sheesh. This is getting very tiring. ScottP said: Do you really think the US of A would be squaring off with Iraq without it. Yes, I think they would. Don't you? ScottP said: The emotional impact of 9/11 doesn't require hard physical evidence for hawkish authority figures in this country to make such a connection. Oh really. So you're saying that just because we're mad that Osama Bin Laden went and killed a bunch of Americans, we're allowed to go kill whoever we want? Really? Oh, I forgot, this is America, we can do whatever the hell we please. It's our god given right, right up there with cheap gas. Â ScottP, I was just commenting on VeggyBelay's poster stating basically something like "Move over you liberals, We'll protect America". It seemed that VeggyBelay was talking about protecting america from some attacker, that being Iraq. My only argument was that Iraq never attacked us, it was Bin Laden, and there is absolutely no connection between the two. Therefore, we can't justify using 9/11 and our emotional trauma for going and attacking Iraq. That is totally weak and lame.These are two totally seperate issues (Osama and Iraq) and should stay that way. There has never been a shred of proof that there is any link between the two, but our president and the media has done a really great job convincing the American public that there actually is!!! For some reason, nobody seems to be able to come up with any proof. Personally, I think the pres. is super embarrased that he couldn't find Osama and doesn't want to look like more of an ass, so he's drummed up some mystery evidence to link Osama to Saddam and is now using that to rally the American people to support the war in Iraq. It's worked on some people, but there are lots others, including me, that think it's bull and are still waiting for this convincing evidence. It's probably just as good as those forged documents that the US was trying to use as proof that Saddam was building nukes. Remember that? Seems to have gotten swept under the rug rather quickly eh? It's just sad that our government is so full of fucking lies and deceit and so many fucking minions walk around happy being fed this shit. Â Yikes, can't figure out whether it's DFA or MtnGoat. Quote
dalius Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 I agree. Regardless on what side of a fence you sit on, it's safe to say that today is a very sad day. For anone that has a concience that is... Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 dalius said: I agree. Regardless on what side of a fence you sit on, it's safe to say that today is a very sad day. For anone that has a concience that is... Â Ah, you taunt me openly now. Quote
Off_White Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Fairweather said: usually burning the flag of one's own country equals hatred/disdain for said nation. Â I dunno, maybe it was a Christian thing, along the lines of "hate the sin but love the sinner" as in, I love my country but I'm not so sure of the assholes in charge. Flag burning is probably not the way I'd choose to express that sentiment, but hey, it takes a lot of colors to make rainbow. Quote
dalius Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 catbirdseat said: fleblebleb said: Well duh, are y'all stone blind now? Dalius is obviously DFA's avatar. Excellent disguise DFA! Nope, I'll vouch for Dalius. I met him at Pub Club. Don't go spreading vicious rumors. Dalius is not DFA. Catbirdseat? Who the hell is catbirdseat? I've never met anyone by that name. Hell, I've never even been to one of those Pube Clubs. Who's making up stories around here? Â Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 hello again all and greetings from the baltic! i have to say that i am not in agreement with shrubs, but what do the more pacifist-oriented people on this boad suggest to do about saddam? he gasses thousands of ehtnic minorities ini the north (can you say hitler?) he randomly kills his citicens to instill fear and then charges the families for the bullets used (ahem hitler?) he broke a treaty by having parts for weapons of mass destruction (empty war heads were found) (sound like versailles?) he uses propaganda in order to create racism (or at least hate of a religious group) where does that sound familiar? oh yeah HITLER! are you seriously telling me that you propose to do nothing? would you ahve done nothing in WWII germany? and will you do nothing now... if you think this war is about oil you have your liberal silver spoon so far down your throught it is comming out your ass. bush may not have the purest of intentions, but i agree that somehting has to be done and endless UN sanctions and france and germany giving 30 more days....30 more days....30 more days will be helpful. now lets support our boys over there and pray that as few have to die as possible... Quote
ScottP Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 Dru whined... gee, if your question was only for Dalius maybe you should have asked him via Private Message, instead of in a forum where ANYONE CAN REPLY?? Â Relax Drew, sheesh. It was a RHETORICAL question. Quote
Dru Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 ScottP said: Dru whined... gee, if your question was only for Dalius maybe you should have asked him via Private Message, instead of in a forum where ANYONE CAN REPLY?? Â Relax Drew, sheesh. It was a RHETORICAL question. Â my reply was RHETORIC too Quote
allthumbs Posted March 20, 2003 Posted March 20, 2003 ScottPee, your grandiloquent cogitations grate on us all. Please reinsert head into ass. Quote
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