Stupid boot question from Denali bound goofball...

[pete_a]

Okay, so I'm up to my armpits in climbing and camping gear trying to get ready for the West Buttress of Denali in two months....still one thing I haven't completely figured out yet....boots.

Here's my dilemma....my group is travelling on skis...I have a Dynafit AT setup that I'm using, some folks are using them as well, some are using Silvretta bindings. What I am trying to figure out is, should I climb the mountain in my Dynafit TLT 4 boots or pack along my Koflach boots in my sled to switch in to at 11,000ft when we cache our skis? My Dynafit boots weigh 4 oz each more than my Koflachs, they do have thermofit liners so they are warm enough to use all the way to the summit....Just trying to figure out if a weight savings of 4oz on each foot higher on the mountain is worth the weight and bulk of a second set of boots in the sled for the first few days of the trip. Any thoughts? Is this a stupid thing to be mulling over?

My thinking is that I should bring the second set of boots to change in to to save weight when high on the mountain...figure that folks bring bottles up hootch and stereos and all other sorts of silliness on the West Butt...so hauling extra boots for a few days isn't the end of the world.

Anyways...thanks for your input.

[Bronco]

hike up to muir in them and see if they are bearable for a long slog?

[ryland_moore]

I would like a response to this as well, as I am one of Pete's teammates, but my question to be coupled with this is, is it better to have two pairs (one AT and one Koflachs), so that you can switch into a nice, dry pair for the upper mountain? Anyone done the west butt in their AT boots?

[iain]

I know someone's done it in scarpa denalis but they had to do a hell of a lot of frontpointing (it may have been here?) Said it paid off big-time for the good skiing while waiting to acclimatize though. (Sorry it's just second-hand knowledge)

[Dru]

ryland_moore said:

I would like a response to this as well, as I am one of Pete's teammates, but my question to be coupled with this is, is it better to have two pairs (one AT and one Koflachs), so that you can switch into a nice, dry pair for the upper mountain? Anyone done the west butt in their AT boots?

 

get intuition liners

 

and boots will always be nice, dry.

[EJohnson]

If your using ski just to get up the glacier I would

would switch to silvretta 500 and use your Koflachs.

 

But on the other hand, your dragging a slad up the 14k so you could take anything want.

Edited March 12, 2003 by EJohnson

[fern]

can you carry both shells but one set of thermofit

liners to do double duty?

I would think if you were forced to do the Frankenstein

walk in stiffy skiboots all over the upper mountain you

might waste more energy than you would have expended just

hauling xtra boots in the sled. But then, IME bulky sleds

are worse than heavy sleds and boots aren't very compact.

 

[jhamaker]

My 2 cents:

 

Bring one pair of boots. Whatever bindings work w/ whatever boots you bring. You will live in those boots for a very long time. You will be weighted down, don't expect to be able to carve more than 3 turns on the trip.

Bring skis you can lv behind. (rem skis make great tent anchors and can be used as pickets)

Bring skiis up to 14,400 camp, you may have trail breaking in deep snow. You can always descend w/ skins on.

Verify that your over-boots can be worn in w/ your skis and crampons.

If June, bring cotton shirt and pants for lower gl, or travel at "night"

No headlamp needed.

Bring eye cover for sleeping.

Practice up and down w/ sleds, ropes and skis. No excuses for fuck-ups or incompetance. If anyone on the team does not pack the sled right or gets tangled in the rope system, dump the sob in one of the 3000ft deep crevasses on the lower glacier. Rem, sleds can kill.

Bring a group repair kit and extras like glacier glasses, pole repair . . .

 

When do you lv Talkeetna?

 

[pete_a]

...We leave from Seattle on May 15th...weather cooperating( haha) we'll be on the glacier by the night of the 16th.

I had originally hoped that my dynafit intuition liners would fit into my koflach shells, but they don't, they're too thick.

If I had an unlimited amount of money I'd buy a pair of silvretta bindings and mount them on some junker skis, but I'd really prefer to just use a setup that I already have.

I've used the dynafit boots on trips before, but I've always been skinning, never boot-packing. Maybe it would be best if I did my best gaper impression and hiked Mt.Si wearing my dynafits and see how the feet and ankles are feeling afterwards.

Either way I figure I can make it work...just want my feet to be comfortable up there and keep things as light as possible on summit day...and getting in a few turns up there wouldn't be bad either...maybe I'm asking for too much.

 

[Montana_Climber]

Look into the Dynafit TLT All-Terrains. I have had good results with these for long approaches on both foot and ski. They take crampons well as I've climbed WI III+ in them. The longest was one of those 20 mile approaches into the Winds to climb a AI5 route that we skiied back down.

 

With the thermoflex liners, they are good in any conditions on Denali. You also don't have to worry about overboots with them, just gaiters to keep the snow out of the tops. Then you carry along a pair of down booties for wearing around camp.

 

To answer your question about bringing along a second pair of boots, I think it's ridiculous. Hauling those sleds along the Butt is still quite a chore. An extra 7 lbs isn't worth it in my opinion. Use the extra weight for something more enjoyable, like a bottle of single-malt scotch to celebrate with.

 

There are several hills where you're going to wish you had no weight on at all. Then going through Windy Corner is a bitch in itself. The sleds keep wanting to slide down the hill and roll over as you are somewhat traversing most of the way through there.

 

Are you only on planning to ski to the City? There are several hills where you probably will be carrying your skis rather than skinning on them. I'm trying to remember all the names right now, but the one just before Windy Corner was all ice and the one before that was thigh deep snow when I was there. The others leading up to it were packed out very well.

 

I tried the Rib in '96 and came back down the Butt. We were there in May.

[salbrecher]

About concerns for your liners getting wet, I hear it's so dry on the upper mountain that anything dries (sublimation...I think) even though it's -umpteen degrees. Carry an extra liner and over sock in a ziplock just for summit day though.

Edited March 13, 2003 by salbrecher

[Dane]

You couldn't pay me to take skis to 14K. Leave them at 11K. Make a carry to windy corner from 11K first if no one in the party has been on the mountain. I suspect you'll all chuck the skiis once you screwed around on that slog once. I also would think about skinny skis and the appropriate light weight shoe and skins to go with them to 11...lighter warmer and much much EASIER getting to 11K from the strip even with a sled. BTDT. In icy conditions no one sane skiis around windy corner anyway. One pair of plastic boots and one pair of liners is more than enough.

 

You are asking for a really miserable time hauling all the shit you ar thinking about including the AT gear. The only front pointing if you're forced by hard conditions, is just out of 14 on fixed lines and I have yet to see anyone front point the headwall that had any sense. You want FLEXABLE ankles and warm boots. Not seen a pair of ATs that are as flexable as I would want them...it is a looooooooong walk in crampons from 11K up and back. Nothing you'll want to do in ski boots, IMO.

 

[rbw1966]

Conditions are so variable up there which may help explain the difference in responses you are receiving. For instance, when I was there I cached my skis at the base of Motorcycle Hill (I'm a notoriously bad skier). I was using Invernos and Silvretta bindings. My partner skied to 14k on his t2's. We had a bitch of atime getting up Squirrel Hill because of his insistance on not taking off his skis but he had a much more pleasant time coming down then I did.

 

Take one pair of boots. Yeah, you're pulling a sled so you can take anything but you will be CURSING that fucker before your trip is through. Make it easy on yourself and settle on one pair. The ski will be pretty miserable regardless of what you decide so suck it up.

 

Bring your favorite genera of cannabis and your troubles will soon fade away.

[Rainier_Wolfscastle]

I'd wear the mountaineering boots since you will have to cover alot of terrain on foot after you ditch the skis. Since you will be spending alot of time and money on this trip, you might as well pony up for the right bindings for your mountaineering boots. Get the Silveretta's (404 or 500) or buy some used Ramer bindings. They can be had for cheap. Here's a pair I found on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2716706387&category=36265

 

Fritschi also made an AT binding (FT-88) that accepts mtn boots. You might be able to find a pair of these on ebay also. I think they were designed for military use (white ones). I have a pair of these (mine are red). They are heavier than the Silverettas, but are bomber, cheap, have DIN release, and a heel lifter.

 

Mount them on some short thrift shop skis.

 

[Dane]

rbw1966 said:

Conditions are so variable up there... you will be CURSING that fucker (the sled) before your trip is through. Make it easy on yourself

 

Ya, I found the same conditions in '78, '80, '82, '85, '90 during May, guess I should try another month Hated the sled every time (and still do) and left my skiis.......as did most, at 11K. If you go to ski, the best turns are below 11 anyway on the glacier. If you are there to climb, the walk between 11 and 145 is beautiful. I have never seen Motorcycle Hill as a great place to make turns, too many big holes lurking around and nothing but wind pack. YMMV

[pete_a]

My group is 99.9% sure we'll dump skis at 11k...the only folks I know who've taken them higher were on denali to ski from the summit, which is a goal thats a few years off in the distance for me I think. If conditions are perfect for skiing above 11k while we are there...the skis will probably go higher, but we just won't know till we get there.

I figure at this point, its getting pretty damn close to our departure date and all those late minute costs are adding up...If I can find a pair of junker skis, more importantly if I can find some cheap Silv. 404's or 500's then thats what I'll probably use. I've got some old Lange alpine boot cuffs that I used as stiffeners back in the good ol' days with my leather tele boots...they may help to stiffen the Koflachs.

My Dynafit boots ARE comfy and relatively light, 4oz difference between those and my Koflachs, not much and of course the bindings weight half as much as the Silvrettas. Its the lack of ankle flexibility that I worry about since the West Butt is for the most part a relatively low angle route. Both my Koflachs and Dynafits fit my crampons and my overboots (40 Below Superlights)...gotta love that neoprene for stretching over buckle boots.

By the way, thanks to all of you for all your input, definitely appreciate having this place as a resource.

Edited March 14, 2003 by pete_a

[jdog]

i was up there last year and both my climbing partner and i took our randonee boots. i have the scarpa lazers and he used the scarpa denalis. i also brought along my scarpa invernos for the climb. he didn't bring along any other boots. i was in the same boat you are in that i had bindings that were not compatible with climbing boots.

 

i was happy i did too. my partner ended up hating life on summit day because he was in his denalis. i only wore my mountaineering boots on summit days so for the most part they were extra weight, but i was glad i didn't have to wear them for 6000' on summit day. yeah it was an extra 7 lbs i had to haul around, but think of it as training.

 

fwiw the skiing was absolutely phenomenal from 16k to 14k camp. you could yo-yo ski all day long. i will agree that the conditions very from year to year and week to week for that matter, but if it snows every day like when we were up there you will be very happy you had your skis and good boots to kill time while at 14k camp. there is nothing better to do. we were also not up there to ski from the summit. had we not summitted it would have still been a good trip because the skiing was so good out of 14k camp.

 

i think the people that left there skis at 11k were regretting it as they watched people who were skiing every day in fresh powder.

 

also good randonee boots make the ski out much more friendly with that f-in sled.

 

i guess it comes down to what is important to you. i am a big skier, so it was important to me to have my skis up at 14k camp with a good pair of boots.

 

there was a post not to long ago about this same topic. you should look there too.

[mr.radon]

I brought Scarpa Denali boots with me, our goal was the West Rib. The Denali’s were perfect for everything I did. I’ve summated Baker in them twice; once before Denali once after and I took them up to Muir. Denali’s do alright climbing but they are heavier then regular climbing boots and not as flexible. I didn’t want to buy plastic boots just for Denali and I didn’t want to haul a set of “climbing boots” in. For skiing there is no comparison to any other AT boot in terms of stiffness.

If you are going to climb in AT boots try them out prior to leaving. Check fit with your crampons and overboots. Your overboots don’t need to fit your ski bindings. You’re never going to want to wear overboots while skiing. I used Silveretta Easy-Go bindings and they worked well

Anyone who caches skis at 11K is really, really, really, stupid!

First, you're much faster on skis. We did a load carry to 13K, were back in camp in minutes. When we moved camp to 14K we passed a lot of parties walking. When we retrieve our cache it took just minuites to ski down to it.

Second, you can yo-yo ski when it snows.

Third, when we left we were the only party breaking trail through four foot deep snow to Motorcycle Hill. Three parties behind us had NO flotation and didn’t help at all. Without the deep snow we would have been back to 11K in minutes.

Send me a PM if you want more info.

 

BTW - I could have used mountaineering boots with my bindings but didn't. I skied from Muir to Paradise with mountaineering boots and it was soo hard to control the skis. I couldn't believe it, those old timers were hard core.

 

Edited March 13, 2003 by mr.radon

[Montana_Climber]

I see that someone mentioned Ramer bindings. DO NOT BUY THEM!!! They suck. I used to have a pair and they broke on me about 30 miles from the car. Fortunately, a piece of perlon worked to hold them in place for the skinning but forget any lateral forces, i.e. skiing. I went back to the company to try to get replacement parts and all they had was their wax shit and no more parts to the bindings. They just said, "Sorry". The best bindings out there are the Silvrettas, 404s for any boot or 500s for AT boots; and the Fritschi Diamirs. The Fritschis are very nice and resemble alpine bindings. They have been very solid for me even on 60 degree slopes.

[Bug]

mr.radon said:

I brought Scarpa Denali boots with me, our goal was the West Rib. The Denali’s were perfect for everything I did. I’ve summated Baker in them twice; once before Denali once after and I took them up to Muir. Denali’s do alright climbing but they are heavier then regular climbing boots and not as flexible. I didn’t want to buy plastic boots just for Denali and I didn’t want to haul a set of “climbing boots” in. For skiing there is no comparison to any other AT boot in terms of stiffness.

If you are going to climb in AT boots try them out prior to leaving. Check fit with your crampons and overboots. Your overboots don’t need to fit your ski bindings. You’re never going to want to wear overboots while skiing. I used Silveretta Easy-Go bindings and they worked well

Anyone who caches skis at 11K is really, really, really, stupid!

First, you're much faster on skis. We did a load carry to 13K, were back in camp in minutes. When we moved camp to 14K we passed a lot of parties walking. When we retrieve our cache it took just minuites to ski down to it.

Second, you can yo-yo ski when it snows.

Third, when we left we were the only party breaking trail through four foot deep snow to Motorcycle Hill. Three parties behind us had NO flotation and didn’t help at all. Without the deep snow we would have been back to 11K in minutes.

Send me a PM if you want more info.

 

BTW - I could have used mountaineering boots with my bindings but didn't. I skied from Muir to Paradise with mountaineering boots and it was soo hard to control the skis. I couldn't believe it, those old timers were hard core.

Read this again. It is what I would say. One major difference is that I didn't take skis at all because we were going to do the West Rib. Besides walking down from 11K, I had to watch DOZENS of people ski excellent terrain ALL OVER THE WB. Carry your mountain boots if you have to. The skiing can be memorable. For me it is a very painful memory.

[pete_a]

Well, I received my artic liners for my Koflachs the other day in the mail and it pretty much sealed my decision on what to do about this minor boot dilemma. I had been weighing my Koflachs with the stock liner and there had been a 4oz difference between my Dynafit boots and my Koflachs...but guess what...the Koflach artic liners are 3oz heavier than the stock liners and now there is a mere 1oz difference between my ski boots and my mountaineering boots. Yeah french technique is still easier in the koflachs but I figure with the weight savings of bringing only one set of boots I'll be more motivated to drag my skis on up 14k to take advantage of any good ski conditions there may be.

...Who knows I could change my mind at least a few times between now and then, but for now I can move on to other big logistical nightmares, like meal planning.

[russ]

Pete - what is the total weight of your ski boots? Trying to make similar decision, but for a lesser peak.

[pete_a]

Hear ya go Russ... I've been having fun with this postal scale that I bought...been weighing all my gear thats going on the trip, I don't trust the manufacturer website weights.

 

Total weight for size 12 mens boots with insoles-

 

Koflach Degre shell model with Artis Exped Liner 3 lbs 4.6 ounces for each boot

 

Dynafit TLT 4s ski boot with new model Dynafit thermofit liner 3lbs 5.8 ounces for each boot.