sexual_chocolate Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 But I still haven't heard straight from the haters as to why they're haters.... Perhaps they simply don't know, and haven't bothered to reflect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 sexual_chocolate said: But I still haven't heard straight from the haters as to why they're haters.... Perhaps they simply don't know, and haven't bothered to reflect? Â About France? I have no problem with the french people. I doubt the majority of the are "ungreatful" or "US haters" or whatever. I hate Chirac however. I hate GWB too. What's your point? I can't voice opposition on the guy's politics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 maybe MiloshK will give Russian view?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 In case anybody is interested... Â According to figures published in the Financial Review today, these are the largest 15 economies, as measured by their Gross Domestic Product in US dollars: Â 1 USA 10,208 2 Japan 4,149 3 Germany 1,847 4 United Kingdom 1,424 5 France 1,307 6 China (exc.HK) 1,159 7 Italy 1,089 8 Canada 700 9 Mexico 618 10 Spain 582 11 Brazil 504 12 India 481 13 Korea 422 14 Netherlands 380 15 Australia 357 16 Russian Federation 310 17 Taiwan 282 18 Argentina 269 19 Switzerland 247 20 Belgium 227 Â Â This is as of Jan 7, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 JoshK said: sexual_chocolate said: But I still haven't heard straight from the haters as to why they're haters.... Perhaps they simply don't know, and haven't bothered to reflect? Â About France? I have no problem with the french people. I doubt the majority of the are "ungreatful" or "US haters" or whatever. I hate Chirac however. I hate GWB too. What's your point? I can't voice opposition on the guy's politics? Â Let me then rephrase: Why such hostility against a particular french humanoid? Chirac, in particular. In other words, why do you hate Chirac so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Last time I checked the US economy is *significantly* larger than the combined EU economies.  not according to what I read. I'll have to look for a ref., perhaps you could provide yours.  A mature and powerful Europe can only help the US and it's economy, IMHO. Whether GWB knows this or not is beyond me.  i think it depends on your economic model for the future. There is simply not enough wealth to sustain unlimited 'growth' for several continents.  The fact sitting beneath all of this is that oil, and the middle east, are a problem for both Europe and the US. The bickering among GWB and half of Europe helps nobody  It's downright suicidal, and I am not sure it's a bluff on the part of the hawks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 To quote R. King: "Can't we all just get along?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 "unlimited growth" amuses me as much as anything else in the neo-liberal economic model. Â I swear capitalists are bigger idealists than communists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 here the US and Europe's gnp is discussed w.r.t. to UN dues which means the euros have no reason to inflate their worth.  http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/un/nytimes10-00.html  By that standard, some countries in financial trouble should pay less and a number of newly affluent countries should pay more, but the United States with about 27 percent to 29 percent of the total world gross national product and an assessment rate of 25 percent would not qualify for a reduction. Europe's collective share of the world G.N.P. is also about 29 percent.  "The European Union nonetheless contributes 36.6 percent of the regular budget," Mr. Levitte said today. "That is a distortion, and means in stark terms that each of the Union's member states pays considerably more than its national wealth." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 HEY did I say you pussys could hijack my thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 trask said: HEY did I say you pussys could hijack my thread? you better just be thankful the goat has not caught wind of this yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Dru said: war is about control of oil supply. all other arguments demostrably false. Â I couldn't agree more. This is why we: Â 1)Didn't seize control of the oilfields in 1991 when we had 500,000 troops sitting on top of them. Â 2)Didn't just unilaterally end the sanctions on Saddam and buy all of the oil that he could pump. Â 3)Are proposing to make expenditures necessary to overthrow the Baath Regime by force, then rebuild the entire country, that are well in excess of any net revenues that selling Iraq's oil would generate, even if they were directly controlled by the US government in their entirety. Â Â Â Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 sexual_chocolate said: Let me then rephrase: Why such hostility against a particular french humanoid? Chirac, in particular. In other words, why do you hate Chirac so? Â His recent pronuncements have made it clear that any moral or humanitarian concerns he may have had about the use of force in Iraq are secondary to his primary objective, which is to constrain US power by any means at his disposal - the French seat on the UN security council in this case - and thereby enhance what's left of France's significance of a global power. This of course is consistent with the strategy that guided French diplomacy for the majority of the Cold War, in which France attempted to establish itself as the leader of the "Non-Aligned" nations and thereby serve as a counterweight to both the US and the Soviet Union. Â The problem with this stance is that is that it is predicated on the delusion that the US and the Soviet Union were morally equivalent, and that a victory for either would be equally disastrous for humanity. Not even the French believed that, but it served as a passable rationale for them to continue masqeurading as a global power despite the fact their status as such has been in steady decline relative to the rest of the world since Waterloo, as their shameful capitulation in WWII made abundantly clear. The US has its own sins to answer for, but those were necessitated by the perogatives of the Cold War rather than a naked desperation to restore a long faded glory. Â Further, I challenge anyone who is under the delusion that France is opposed to an attack on Iraq for humanitarian reasons to take a close look at French history, beginning with their conduct in the wars they waged to maintain control of their overseas colonies. Start with Algeria and work towards the present. More recent highlights include sending forces to buttress the Hutu regime responsible for slaughtering one million Tutsi's (more in "We Wish to Inform You that Tommorrow We Will be Killed Along With Our Families," by Phillip Gourevitch) and thereby thwarting band of Rwandan rebels who were attempting to arrest the carnage, and fraternizing with Robert Mugabe even as he engineers a famine for his political opponents in Zimbabwe. Whatever rationale they may claim for their actions, they certainly cannot claim that the either the future or the security of anyone rested on them. They have never felt obliged to have the UN Security Council's endorsement prior to deploying their own troops - exhibit A being their current involvement in the Ivory Coast- and they are certainly in no position to demand that the US do so. Â BTW - anyone remember Kosovo? Remember the UN resolution authorizing the use of force to end the slaughter there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Hey, Â I just heard that the French Government banned "Euro-Disney" from doing their nightly fireworks show.... Â Â .....The French army kept trying to surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 you better just be thankful the goat has not caught wind of this yet. Â Where is the Goat, anyway? Â I have said it before, and I repeat it here today: We should enslave the French men and satisfy their women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted March 12, 2003 Author Share Posted March 12, 2003 frenchies are fags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Fairweather said: Hey, Â I just heard that the French Government banned "Euro-Disney" from doing their nightly fireworks show.... Â Â .....The French army kept trying to surrender. Bwahahahahahaah!!!!!! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 JayB said: The problem with this stance is that is that it is predicated on the delusion that the US and the Soviet Union were morally equivalent, and that a victory for either would be equally disastrous for humanity. Not even the French believed that, but it served as a passable rationale for them to continue masqeurading as a global power despite the fact their status as such has been in steady decline relative to the rest of the world since Waterloo, as their shameful capitulation in WWII made abundantly clear. The US has its own sins to answer for, but those were necessitated by the perogatives of the Cold War rather than a naked desperation to restore a long faded glory. Â hogwash, they just don't like being told what to do, which everyone with half a brain can relate to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 There is simply not enough wealth to sustain unlimited 'growth' for several continents. Â "Wealth" is not a static, unchanging quantity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 j_b said: hogwash, they just don't like being told what to do, which everyone with half a brain can relate to. Â These principled objections to to telling anyone what to do (which of course you must have if you object to receiving any such instruction yourself) of course explains why they deployed their troops to enforce a massively unpopular treaty in the Ivory Coast. Â The term "Hogwash" certainly is an effective substitute for a well constructed counterargument, though. You win. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 This JayB/j_b thing is just too hard to follow...can you get some new avatars pleez? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 "Wealth" is not a static, unchanging quantity. Â you are right! especially since we keep using natural resources as if there were no tomorrow. Â These principled objections to to telling anyone what to do (which of course you must have if you object to receiving any such instruction yourself) of course explains why they deployed their troops to enforce a massively unpopular treaty in the Ivory Coast. Â who said principled objections? I was only observing that having the same person telling another what to do all the time generates bad feelings. Is this too difficult to understand? is this the kind of relationship you seek out? Â The french attitude toward africa has been truly terrible at times, but in the latest case of the Ivory Coast they seemed to be genuine and were caught offguard by gzabo (sp?), or so it seems. Anything beyond that, would be reaching, which you are doing of course. Â The term "Hogwash" certainly is an effective substitute for a well constructed counterargument, though. You win. Â well, to be frank I am not sure what else I could say when reading your rhetoric about the french 'naked desperation to restore a long faded glory'. For one thing, it is the same nonsense we have heard from conservative commentators for month now. The french are yearning for their lost empire, the arabs are jealous of our wealth, the germans are closet nazis, etc ... can you think of anymore excuses to explain why these people are upset with us? Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 RobBob said: This JayB/j_b thing is just too hard to follow...can you get some new avatars pleez? Â its jekyll and hyde, two avatars in one body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I still think there needs to be a goat summit thread where all goat avatars go in for a battle cage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billygoat Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 I am not a goat, I am THE GOAT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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