cjain Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Which do you prefer? How many do you carry? It it worth carrying the 36 inch pickets over the 24 inche ones? I gotta confess that while I've practiced placing both pickets and deadmen I really haven't needed to use them yet for "real." I usually solo steep snow and on the occasions where we did use pro we have been able to use rock pro. (Most of my mountaineering has been in the Sierra Nevada. ) So interested in hearing people's opinions on using these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Well, you can certainly deadman a picket as well as use it upright. Do you mean to compare pickets to flukes? In any event, I dont use flukes, so I guess I couldn't make that comparison. Pickets are quite versitile however. I have one of the 36" ones that I found as booty and I keep meaning to cut it to 24" since I never want to carry a 36" picket. I think, realistically, a 36" picket would more useful in the rockies or other places with less consolidated snowpacks and lighter snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 It really depends on the snow conditions. When the snow is really soft (typicaly winter or early season) you will want longer pickets. In the summer the snow will become more dense and smaller ones will work fine. Pickets are easier to pound in firm snow, but deadmen may hold better in soft snow. By late august through the fall you may want ice screws instead. So it's good to have an assortment and decide when it's time to head out. I only own standard pickets and screws, which seems to suffice for most things. I'm sure there are lots of different opinions about what works best in what circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Deadmen are annoying as all getout. They get burrs all over them from banging on them and they cut stuff up. They are bomber at times, sketchy many others. I hate carrying them around. I use pickets, the short kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I own a short picket and a small fluke. I carry both on 2 man glacier teams, just a picket if more than 2 or if the snow is hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Pro Mountain Sports has a cool peice of pro, it's Charlet Moser piece, sorta like the shaft of a tool without the head. Great for hammering into hardpack snow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 The trick is to sharpen the end of a picket down to a mean point so you can huck it at animals for food. Easier to place, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Flukes are for super soft snow like in alaska or the top of emperor ridge on robson. the chance you will actually need a fluke in the Cascades is minimal. 36 inch pickets are the equivalent of 22cm screw, you end up tying them off mostly, they are heavier, and more irritating. just my opinion but i hardly ever place pickets anyways....ignore everything i say... you can always rap off a bollard..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 (edited) Soft snow = Deadman/flukes (That is Cascade Concrete soft) Regular snow = 24 in picket Hard snow = 18 inch picket (Cut a 36 in half with a pointed end...they rock) Edited February 13, 2003 by Rodchester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Hard snow = 18 inch picket (Cut a 36 in half with a pointed end...they rock) I'm ashamed to say I didn't think of doing this with my 36" I have lying around. Sounds like a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Yeah... 18 inch pickets really are great in spring and summer cascade concrete. Light weight and low bulk. I'm sure smoeone will say they have studied the effect of reducing the surface area blah blah blah...but I've tested them and I am happy with their performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 DMM makes a nice fluke with a metal sleeve protecting the top so it won't get as banged up. That said, I have yet to use mine. I have two New Zealand-style pickets as well and the last couple of times I used them it was just for show. They probably wouldn't even have held body weight. Pickets are cool though because if you really need to you can bury them as deadmen and work-harden the snow, which is slow but reasonably secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 i read a story about the FA of one of the ridges on Mt. Logan where someone took a 600' sliding fall on yellow polyproylene rope attached to a fluke, and the thing dived into the snow on the ridge and held, eventually burying itself like 15m down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 ...I have two New Zealand-style pickets as well and the last couple of times I used them it was just for show. Fill me in, what's a "New-Zealand-style picket"?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 home made cut off chunk of angle iron/shelf bracket, with a point on one end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daler Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Flukes are for super soft snow like in alaska or the top of emperor ridge on robson. the chance you will actually need a fluke in the Cascades is minimal. I'm surprised many who have commented here think flukes are good for soft snow. I have found exactly the opposite. Maybe if you have medium pack snow underneath but then its really hard to evaluate. With the multiple layering in Alaska snow, a fluke is one of the worst options. Pickets all the way! short, long, deadman- way more of a allaround piece. my 2 cents! dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I agree with everything people have been saying. The key thing to remember is to match the pro to the snow. Large surface area for soft snow and small surface are for hard snow. A deadman takes too long to place for routine protection, but it is what you should use for crevasse rescue, unless you are on ice, in which case you'd use several equalized screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 ...I have two New Zealand-style pickets as well and the last couple of times I used them it was just for show. Fill me in, what's a "New-Zealand-style picket"?? and the link just incase: http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/ice/pickett.jpg I have a couple of these guys and like them alot, they are a bit lighter than the "T" style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjain Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 >>>>>>>I have a couple of these guys [Yates pickets] and like them alot, they are a bit lighter than the "T" style . Do you have the ones with the cable? Does the cable really help? If you hammer it into the snow (as opposed to using it as a deadman) I would guess you'd want to just clip the top and not use the cable at all, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric8 Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 The SMC pickets are cheap and they come with a pointed end. As jordonp pointed out this is great for firm snow, when you can trust a pick placement, or to kill snaffles. I find most of the time my pickets stay on my pack and i've only rearly used them for belays Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Do you have the ones with the cable? Does the cable really help? If you hammer it into the snow (as opposed to using it as a deadman) I would guess you'd want to just clip the top and not use the cable at all, correct? That's a really good question. Presumably the cable is for when the picket is used as a deadman anchor. If you could get the cable to bite through the snow when pounded in yes, but otherwise it would cause the picket to pull up and out. You would have to cut a slot with your pick perhaps. Maybe other more enlighted individuals could add something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Brian- I have repeatedly noted that I routinely carry a 24" picket but almost never use it in the Cascades. For a belay in firm snow, I just about always kick, stomp or dig a ledge big enough that I can feel comfortable without the picket. For intermediate protection, I almost never feel secure relying upon one and look for other alternatives. I still carry it -- don't get me wrong -- but I can't remember the last time that I hammered in a picket and thought "thank god - I can relax now." As far as the cable? I think that in our snowpack, pickets are probably most useful buried deadman-style where the cable is obvously most suited. Alternatively, just put a 'biner on the top (or at snow-surface level if the picket doesn't penetrate all the way), and run the cable through the 'biner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daler Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Brian- I have repeatedly noted that I routinely carry a 24" picket but almost never use it in the Cascades. For a belay in firm snow, I just about always kick, stomp or dig a ledge big enough that I can feel comfortable without the picket. For intermediate protection, I almost never feel secure relying upon one and look for other alternatives. I still carry it -- don't get me wrong -- but I can't remember the last time that I hammered in a picket and thought "thank god - I can relax now." As far as the cable? I think that in our snowpack, pickets are probably most useful buried deadman-style where the cable is obvously most suited. Alternatively, just put a 'biner on the top (or at snow-surface level if the picket doesn't penetrate all the way), and run the cable through the 'biner. I think it would be better to clip directly to the caribiner and not run the cable through it. Running the cable will produce more stress and leverage on the piece. dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Matt, I surprises me to hear you say that you would never trust a picket to hold a fall. I would say that it depends entirely on the snow conditions. There are many situations where they are bomber in spring and summer snow. Granted, in winter conditions, you'd want a fluke or some other protection like a tree. Daler, you said: I think it would be better to clip directly to the caribiner and not run the cable through it. Running the cable will produce more stress and leverage on the piece. dale I disagree. It cannot produce more leverage on the piece than would a sling tied directly to the same hole as the biner. Furthermore, the cable is plenty strong enough to hold when used in this fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjain Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 I remember reading somewhere that in really soft snow conditions (like where it would be impossible to arrest with the ice axe pick) some climbers use a picket for self-belay rather than an ice axe. Anyone do this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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