Daisy Chain Anchors!

[two-flats-fer-sure]

I've seen people climb with two daisy chains on their harness, arrive at the belay, clip them in a semi equalized way (off the damn sewn loops!) to bolts or whatever, then belay off the harness! Eeeeek....Back me up folks is this bad news or what?

Why not just use der clove hitch or a fancy double figure 8?

[Lambone]

Two-flats,

Ahhh, I love this debate, allways two climbers and three opinions.

First, the "damn" Sewn Loops are the proper place to clip into a daisy. That is ONE loop, not two right next to each other. By clipping into one you are essentialy clipping into one continous full strength runner.

Do I use 'um? No. Why? Because they are just extra stuff, they get in the way and drive me crazy when I am fishing for extra biners. Unless your aiding, they are just extra weight.

Are they safe? Yeah, they are totaly bomber as long as you clip into them properly. Of course, you should allways equalize all the anchor points as best possible.

Clove Hitch- nice knot. But the AMGA does not condone using one as your main tie-in point. Why? Because in pull tests they slip around 400-600 lbs.

Better to tie into the main point with a figure eight with a bunch of slack, then short tie with a clove hitch.

I think the reason that you see so many people using them (usually new climbers), is that the guys at REI tell you that "It's just how you do it." Why? Guess how many daisies they sell a in year... Then there are allways the people who like lots of cool and important looking gear dangeling of their harnesses.

Don't get me wrong, I wish I had my Daisy and a Fat Locker all those times I ended up clipping into the anchor with my chalkbag biner and a few nut wires threaded together!

 

[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-11-2001).]

[two-flats-fer-sure]

My reason for the use of the word "damn", I've had them blow a stitch or two after a small aid climbing fall, really didin't take much....Doesn't sound like the best idea to be anchored on a "screamer" break away kinda thing huh? I do see your point of the full strength runner, seems sound....

I'm not thinking its a death trap rig, just seems misuse of an item intended for clipping off non dynamic loads vs. using it as a full blown anchor setup...maby the next string should be about that climbing nudes calendar I saw in Mountain Gear, much more exciting than boring tech stuff!

[Rodchester]

Hey Lambone,

Good info...I agree...I have stopped using a daisey because they do just get in the way. They are safe and strong.

Good idea to back up the clove hitch...I must admit, I rarely do though.

[Lambone]

Two Flats,

Yes, yes... but one more thing.

I would argue that 2 or 3 feet of rope ain't a whole hell of alot more dynamic than a daisy chain.

Ok, back to naked women.

[texplorer]

Better yet two flats,

I climb with one daisy on my harness. I like it because its super easy to clip into the anchors at the top of a climb. Adjusting the length is really easy too. If I belay from my harness I use the rope with an 8 on a bite as my 2nd anchor tie-in. And no, I didn't learn it from some piker at the Evil Empire. I do agree with lambone about the clutter though. It has a bad tendency of getting caught up in cams and quickdraws. I'm probably going to not use it anymore when carrying alot of gear. I am curious what you guys do. Do you just carry an extra couple of runners, rope, cordelette?

[Lambone]

Equalize the anchor points with double length runners. Use one big locker for your main point, and clip in with a figure eight. That is all you need, your rope won't break, keep it simple!

The only draw back is that it does eat up extra rope (as Dru mentioned in another thread).

If you have it, give your self enough slack to move around, but tie in close to the anchor with a clove hitch. Its important to be close (within reach)to the anchor in case you need to fix something, or escape the belay. If you have a cordelete, save it for a rescue situation (on a serious route that is). Or bring two cordelettes if you prefer building anchors with them. Self-rescue is a hell of alot easier if you have a cordelette to use.

Belaying straight off the anchor is great if its convienient. I really like the new Reverso (petzl).

Blah,blah...yes I'm bored and procrastonating my homework. I hope that helps though. It's the method I learned from C. Fowler.

[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-11-2001).]

[genepires]

I don't use the daisy chain either but lots of my friends do. They use both the rope and the daisy to clip into anchors. Whatever makes them feel safe. But to stash the daisy while climbing and not get it in the way, they swing the daisy between the legs and clip the daisy onto the back gear loop. Clip an appropriate loop on the daisy as to not have it hang to low (getting it caught around knees) and not too tight (floss your bung hole).

As a general rule, it always better to use a cordelette to make the anchor. If something bad happens and you have to escape the belay, it is much easier to get out if your rope or daisies are not involved with the equalization of the anchor. Also, the cordelette can become rappel anchors. (try that with a daisy or the precious climbing rope)

Where's the naked chicks?

 

[Lambone]

"As a general rule, it always better to use a cordelette to make the anchor. If something bad happens and you have to escape the belay, it is much easier to get out if your rope or daisies are not involved with the equalization of the anchor."

Yeah I agree, but who wants to cary two cordelets? I use just a long sling to equalize the anchor, works just as good as the cordelette (you can do the same thing with it). I here those Web-o-letts work good.

I'd also agree with keeping the rope out of the equalization system. Which is not what John Long teaches in his Anchors book.

[freak]

FOr longer climbs I've used two regular slings girth hitched to my harness with a locker on each one, one hooked to either side, they dont get in the way as much if you tie an over hand knot in the middle of the sling. Its cool especially at bolt belays, and you also have two extra slings incase you run out. nic

[jhamaker]

I vote for the cordelette. I like having one point as the main belay for everyone.I also like the security of tying in direct to the anchor w/ the climbing rope.

My prefered is 20+ ft of *spectra* (expensive) The cheap way out is 8mm or so climbing rope, or 20+ ft of one inch tubular webbing.

The belay is last resort security, it must not fail.

I was interested to here that clove hitches slip at 400-600 lbs, can anyone substatiate this? AMGA refrences?

[Lambone]

Thats what Charlie told me, but I haven't seen it written down anywhere. He said the AMGA did pull tests on all the knots. The overhand is strongest, followed by the figure eight.

[dbb]

I use a daisy (single) girthed into my harness. Most anchors I make use a combo of a clove hitch and the daisy on seperate pieces. This has a few advantages because: you're tied in via two seperate points, you can have better multi directional anchoring, and you have a natural "screamer" built in. Those loops are only rated to 2 kN each, but the sling is like 20+ overall. Imagine (god forbid) that a fall is enough to rip out the clove hitch piece(s) and start tearing into the 2nd (daisy) piece(s). I'd sure like to have that thing start ripping out at 440 lbs/F one stich at a time than all the load, all at once.

Also, if you want full strength loops, tie your own. I agree that TWO daisies is excessive, maybe somewhat dangerous, but more approperiate for multi-pitch sport.

[jon]

I pretty much do the same as Dave, girth hitched daisy on the harness and clove hitch rope preferably into seperate anchors and sometimes depending on exposure add and additional sling just in case things really hit the fan, this is on sport of course. Using the Reverso I belay of the anchor, or at the very least set up a directional so I'm getting pulled up through the anchor instead of down. Any guides know what the "approved" method is?

I see some people at the sport crags using only the one daisy at the top of the anchor, sometimes not even clipping through both anchors or staying tied into the rope when feeding the chains. I've seen it done if one bolt pops the person is taking flight or misclipping the rope and dropping it, which I find really irresponsible. A couple months ago at Smith this person came up a route next to me as I was about to come down and although they led the thing she had not a clue how to anchor in and set up the rappel, and didn't really have the gear to do it either. I spent 10 minutes talking her through it so she could get down. My motto is you can never be too carefull and a redundant system is the key to that. Hey Ima, do you guys teach this at VW for people who weren't taught this by the sales guy at REI who sold them their new gear?

[Jason_Martin]

I've spent a significant amount of time guiding during the spring and summer months. My guide training has been provided by fully certified AMGA guides, including one of the few that have all three certifications.

As guides it was STRONGLY suggested that we use clove-hitches to tie into the anchor points. The reason? One can adjust his location in relationship to the anchor easily without releasing the knot. Every guide I know ties into his anchor with a clove-hitch.

We also generally carry two three cordilletes for anchors. Again a system that is pretty much industry standard for guides.

Jason

[daler]

lambone,

good info for the most part. You are correct it in that is is always best to equalize all the pro points then anchor into the power point with a knot. but using only your rope to attach to the power point takes you right back to being only attached to one item. the rope!! Yes the rope won't break but being clipped into the anchor with only the tight rope makes into quite vunerable to falling rock and ice. always good to use another independent item (daisy chain) clip it tight to your best piece or into the power point. Keeping the motto of not having all your eggs in one basket. Yes I know the rope is the only thing your attached to when you are actually climbing, but this should be the only time.

dale

[Bronco]

Here is what Petzl recomends:

http://www.petzl.com/sport/sportuktest/sport.html

very quick/efficient set up for experienced climbers, but, the belayer's anchor is not backed up which I've found is a preference thing.

[Beck]

A daisy chain shouldn't be used in any part of an anchor setup as daisy chains rate at 6-800 lb breaking strength-will not take eeven 10 kiloneutons in a dynamic event- webbolette, cordalette, long runners or rope is preferred. Use of Daisys should be limited to body weight hangs off anchor points with seperate belay setup, aiding or clipping gear in at belay stance. My 2 tarnished cents.

[Bronco]

I appologize in advance for contradicting you Beck, but, I looked in the back of my BD cataloge yesterday and a 5/8" spectra daisy chain is rated for 19kN with the individual pockets rated at 3kN. As opposed to a regular Spectra sling rating of 22kN. I agree with the rest of your analysis though.

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Beck]

Thanks for checking it out Bronco, I'm just spewing my rational against using daisys in a belay anchor setup, I know lots of people do it and take falls on them, I'm just way cautious- by the way, does anyone see beta from manufacturers, not REI salesdudes, that a daisy is recommended in a belay anchor?

/as an edit, I must have confused in my memory individual loops @3kn approx 800 lbs as total daisy chain strength, not total strength of daisy as runner,my mistake

[This message has been edited by Beck (edited 10-12-2001).]

[willstrickland]

Every anchor is different so every situation is different. Learn all the methods you can and make your own decision based on the situation at hand.

"All guides do it this way" doesn't hold sway for me because I climb with much different protocols when guiding than when on personal outings. And with a zillion variations for each personal outing.

Spectra daises have a breaking strength of much higher than 800lbs, for standard nylon it may well be that low, I don't know because I don't use nylon daisies.

As long as you don't cross clip the daisy loops they are every bit as bomber as the sling or cordelette you put on the anchor.

Think about how you would escape the belay anytime you get set-up on an anchor, the optimal length from you to the anchor point, who will lead the next pitch, etc.

The bowline on a bight is a convienient way to tie off to the anchors, it's easily equalized, strong, and doesn't use much rope or any slings. It does require swinging leads or swapping rope ends though.

Safe is safe and overkill is overkill, do what the situation calls for...

When moving fast on a grade IV where I know we are swinging leads: if I hit a two bolt anchor I almost always clip the daisy into one piece, throw a biner on each piece, tie off the bowline on a bight and belay off my harness through a directional either on one of the anchor points or off a high loop in my daisy. This allows a slight safety margin (if the rope gets chopped you're still connected to something), and if you're follower somehow takes a big fall (maybe rope gets stuck and you can't take in slack and they fall while trying to climb to the stuck point) then the stitching in the daisy loops provide a sort of screamer for the anchor. It's also fast and requires little fumbling with gear.

Just throwing in my $1.23

[haireball]

"who wants to carry two corelettes?" well, I typically carry three or four on anything more substantial than a single-pitch sport climb. Also, for what it's worth, a "prussik-upon-itself" tied from 6mm+ accessory cord is stronger than any nylon sewn daisy, and more precisely adjustable. It shares with the clove-hitch the advantage of being able to adjust without unclipping/reclipping. I equalize multiple anchor points with a sling or cordelette, and tie in SHORT to the power point with the belay rope. I'm not worried about rockfall or icefall chopping the few inches of rope connecting me to the power point. Anything big enough to chop my belay rope that close to me is probably going to damage me enough so that I'll be past caring.

[Matt]

quote:

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Originally posted by lambone:

Clove Hitch- nice knot. But the AMGA does not condone using one as your main tie-in point. Why? Because in pull tests they slip around 400-600 lbs.

---

What does this mean when using the clove hitch as a way of self belaying while solo aiding? Does it provide a dynamic belay? I have heard that Yosemite hardmen have tried this method and then gotten their fingers stuck in the loose knot, only to suffer the consequences when the knot tightens up in a fall.

 

[wotan_of_ballard]

Great discussion. over a dozen replies and no spam ! I see a bit of clove hitch slip as an advantage as it lessens shock load. the knot doesn't fail. and you can untie it without getting pumped after its been heavily loaded, unlike a figure 8.

Has anyone out there ever held a long factor 2 fall to put these huge loads on the belayer and anchor? know anyone?

[Matt]

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/pull_tests_11_98.html

This is a great web site and I suggest you check it out. It answered my question about clove hitch failure.

Test Situation:

Pull a clove hitch to failure. The clove hitch was tied around the shackle on the load cell. The other end of the rope was tied with a figure eight on a bight. New 11 mm Blue Water Rope was used.

Result: Material failure at the clove hitch at 5110 lbs.

Discussion: The clove hitch did not slip! We were all very surprised at this. Before drawing any further conclusions, I would like to test this again - on a carabiner instead of the shackle. I suspect the rough surface of the shackle added extra friction to the knot.