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quote: Originally posted by Rodchester: I have tried the old bicycle tube on a bnet gate biner and it is OK...but those ice devices rock. Tell me more.....?

quote: Originally posted by mikeadam: ...if you tried to cross the range going across the Pickets you may as well forget it... E/W? independant of the "could it be done in less than a week.." thing.... My brother in law has a little book dedicated exclusively to traverses in the pickets. He told me about a NS travers they did that started at Hanagen, went over easy pass, climbed/trtaversed then slopes of challenger....the middle I don't remember.... terror was in there somewhere.... anyways, they end up finishing coming out that lake east of McMillan... Awesome! What an undertaking! But anyways, this book had a whole bunch of these traverses, mostly "non-techinical" (right!) and it even had a little map that came with the book that was laminated... How fun! Anybody know the name of this book? Know where to get it (besides my brother's house?)

Mike and Geoff: I like what your saying! It makes me think of something I'd like to share. Most of the awesome climbers I admire, either cause they have an great list of accomplishments or just because they have the right idea when it comes to what's important in climbing... they alwost always repsect other people and what they're doing in climbning. It seems like the best climbers are always excited to see the most bummbly newbie thrashing their way up a 5.5 and loving every minute of it. I think since they have such a good idea about why climbing is so great, they understand the joy of a new climber doing what would be to them easy climbs. So yeah. Who frickin cares if you hike, snoeshoe, AT, tele, crawl..what ever? IT"S ALL FUN and seeing other people wooping it up always makes you smile!

let the incesant "my skiing is cooler than yours" begin.

Alex: nice synopsis. I'd like to add one thing. It is much easier to ski in AT gear with plastic boots than it is to climb (not "skin" climb...) in teleboots. So it seems reasonable that if you want to use your skiing setup to approach ice, winter climbs, or quicken up volcanoe slogs, AT shoud recieve extra attention. One last thing: don't let snobbery on induce you to choose one over the other. I think you'll find that there is a significant amount of it floating around the ski scene! I just laugh at them!

JB: Check you pm's

Jon: I think they're funny. But that will probably wear off in about...three seconds, then they'll just be a distraction in an already cluttered screen. My vote: No ratings. (FYI: Even though I don't like the new format, I still think you (plural?) folks rock for setting up this board. It's so much fun and even sometimes has useful info!

I WAS a student at WWU and I was part of a climbing club for a while... the problem was, why a club? Who needs it? Maybe to find partners, but it seemed like there were enough people you could always scavenge up some sap to tag along on some trip. Need partners? Go to the O.C.

Not to let a perfectly good climbing discussion tech out.. I just have to defend myself... two approaches: 1. Temperature = molcular speed = rate 2. heat transfer is proportional to temperature implying temp is a rate And you'll notice we both said the same thing: you can't quantitfy heat with the units of temperature1.

I think the resolution to this debacle is the retorical question "Who cares?" 1. Does someone owning this jacket, a handwarmer, or a fancy piece of gadetry interfier with your enjoyment (or not enjoyment as it would seem) of the outdoors. If your answer is yes, then I think you should reconsider why you climb. I'm not in climbing to compare myself to others. If your answer is no, drop the issue. 2. Note this is different than snow machines since snow machines do signifigantly interfere with my enjoyment of the outdoors (note: i'm still a fan of snowmachines....) Here I think the noise much more obtrusive then someone audasity in artificially "conquering" nature. 3. This isn't to say that the jackets do seem a bit silly. But this doesn't mean I'll call them wrong or say people shouldn't use them. 4. As an analyst, I can't help but take offense at the claim "The heating element can keep pumping 105 F of warmth to you for five hours. . . " Everybody nows "105 F of warmth" is not a quantity (it's a rate) and therefor can not be pumped.

I don't care if you're a girl or guy; if you were extra-heavy duty undies, you sound like my type!

Just to add my two cents.... I've always thought of sport and trad not being dictated by bolts or gear pro, but more on the STYLE of the climb. A sport climb, to me, is a climb that focuses on gymnastic movements, is usually short, and is most interested in the actual movements. A trad climb has many more aspects, such as commitment, approach, tricky gear, obscure technique (what the hell is a hand jam and how do you ice it?). So if you compare the bolt/gear definitions to my definitions, you'll see some similarities, and you'll see some differences. Many of the climbs on the north side of the feathers are bolted, but I wouldn't consider them sport climbs (they're too easy). So of the routes at peshastin are bolted, but I wouldn't call them sport routes (they're too scary). Maybe I could sum it up best be saying sport routes emphisize difficulty and trad routes emphisize adventure.

ok, so is there a interface of sliding and not sliding, or is is a continum of not sliding, sliding just a bit, sliding a little more, and sliding? (What I'm getting at here is the interface bewteen rock and ice where on surface is sliding on the other...) If it is the second case (a continum of movement...) how do geologist determine a mas sod rocks is arock glacier, and not just a pile of rocks roling down the hill?

Can anyone give a good, thurough description of what a rock glacier is? Is it a rockslide that is undergoing mass movement? Ice covered with rock? 1/2 scotch, 1/4 ice, 1/4 lemon?

OK, I'll say I don't wear a helmet. I do on alpine climbs, or in more remote places (don't ask for my logic... I'm only submitting my opinions, which do not require logic...). And it's not because they look geeky, it's not because they are awkward... I just don't like them! If someone asked why you don't eat spinach (love it!), you probably wouldn't say "the salycilic adic comines with the tri-nuclaic polymar bases to form..." You'd just say you don't like it. I don't like helmets. Dangerous without? Yep. I'm sure it is. But I'd be safer climbing 5.8 splitters that I could place gear every 3' in. I think what it boils down to is climbing (for me) is about freedom, and freedom to do things safely or dangerously. AND, I much appreciate how the comments so far have been "this is what I do, and this is why" and NOT "people who do (don't do) this are dumb because..." We respect each other's freedom of choice. (now isn't that cute!)

Wilson Headwall on Rainier is an un-crowded, asthetically pleasing, non-insane route up the mountain that offers noderate technical challenges and great views. North Buttress of Chamioux peak in BC is a easy, fun, nice looking climb. It also has an easy approach!

I worked on a ranger dist on the wenatchee and had the ... pleasure of working with Mr. Inthout several times. He's a jerk, and it's too bad he's in law enforcement. I've heard stories from within the FS that don't paint a pretty picture of him. Too bad he's not stuck in some soils lab titrating deer crap till he's blue in the face!

I'm not into the bolt/anti-bolt scene in the PNW enough to know where bolting is an issue. So I can't answer the first question. As to your second comment, yes, I agree. If land amnagers say "hey, this bolting thing is getting out of comtrol. They look bad and they violate the wilderness ethic, and ...blah blah blah..." and climbers have a mechanism to reduce and control fixed anchors, the land managers are more likely to say, "Ok, you folks seem to be able to take care of this yourself. Therre's a system inplace. If it's not broken, don't fix it" But, on the other hand, if therre is no climber-controled system in place, and the land managers find themselves in need of a system, the quickest and easiest thing they can do is shut the whole thing down. A Ban on fixed anchors. And I would say that it's in the best interest of climbers of all ethical pursuations to have the control to limit fixed anchors, with exceptions for potentially awesome climbs. But, like you say, I don't think there is enough of a fixed anchor problem in the land managers eyes (yet) to initiate action limiting fixed anchors, nor do I think there is enough unity in the climbing community in PNW to allow for a fixed anchor commision that is obeyed. There would always be rogue bolter and bolt choppers that would ruin it for the climbers trying to retain some control and limit the loss of power to governmental agencies (does this say something about those who chop anchors in defiance of public sentiment? yes. They make land owners less inclined to leave the power of bolting in the hands of the climbing community) ok, enough. What i should FINISH w/ is simply saying PNW climbers should keep these types of groups in the back of their mind; even though it might not be a problem now, they're going to be faced with the issue in the future.

quote: Originally posted by erikn: It would take quite a bit of effort (and ability to endure criticism) on someone's part to set up the process. I imagine it only happened at Eldorado Canyon because the alternative was a government imposed ban on new fixed hardware. Right. It would be a lot of effort and I admitt I'm too lazy to do it. And like you say, I think the fixed anchor committee was formed because the only other option was no more anchors at all! So, it seems like the punchline is that if climbers can take care of the bolting issue themselves in a structured way (i.e. not placing bolts w/o community concensus and not wanking bolts on midnight missions....), the non-climbing governing bodies will let the climbers take care of themselves. I think this idea could be used at ANY of the locations in WA that are under government scrutiny for climber impacts.

PLEASE! Good God, PLEAE! Read this and make NEW comments... let's not get into the bolt thing again. I thought people might like to look at what other communities are doing and think about cc.com as a tool for future use-specific management groups. http://www.climbingboulder.com/community/fhrc/

Who's this arron Dunlap fellow and how does Dru know him?

The Great Trog: Don't make a vacation out of it. I went there and.. it's a big rock you ca nsleep under. That's about it. BUT, the noksack Cirque is AWESOME! This would be a great p[lace to have a party or bring a non-climber type for a good mountain experience. It's about 2 miles in and once your in, it's all about a deep cirque with Mt Shuksan as a backdrop.

speaking of skins: anybody have a used pair to sell? grouchous_rex@yahoo.com

two things: 1. from a tech standpoint, I bet a good boulder-er could move into the cragging (note I didn't say climbing) realm and get good quicker than a good climber could move into the bouldering scene and get good. Bouldering is so intense, it just seems you'll get real good real quick. 2. jason_h: you wouldn't ahppen to be a jason_h living in a certain southern state that begins with A, would you? I visited a jason in Flagstaff this spring that was from my HT while up from cochise...