max

I don't care if you're a girl or guy; if you were extra-heavy duty undies, you sound like my type!

Just to add my two cents.... I've always thought of sport and trad not being dictated by bolts or gear pro, but more on the STYLE of the climb. A sport climb, to me, is a climb that focuses on gymnastic movements, is usually short, and is most interested in the actual movements. A trad climb has many more aspects, such as commitment, approach, tricky gear, obscure technique (what the hell is a hand jam and how do you ice it?). So if you compare the bolt/gear definitions to my definitions, you'll see some similarities, and you'll see some differences. Many of the climbs on the north side of the feathers are bolted, but I wouldn't consider them sport climbs (they're too easy). So of the routes at peshastin are bolted, but I wouldn't call them sport routes (they're too scary). Maybe I could sum it up best be saying sport routes emphisize difficulty and trad routes emphisize adventure.

ok, so is there a interface of sliding and not sliding, or is is a continum of not sliding, sliding just a bit, sliding a little more, and sliding? (What I'm getting at here is the interface bewteen rock and ice where on surface is sliding on the other...) If it is the second case (a continum of movement...) how do geologist determine a mas sod rocks is arock glacier, and not just a pile of rocks roling down the hill?

Can anyone give a good, thurough description of what a rock glacier is? Is it a rockslide that is undergoing mass movement? Ice covered with rock? 1/2 scotch, 1/4 ice, 1/4 lemon?

OK, I'll say I don't wear a helmet. I do on alpine climbs, or in more remote places (don't ask for my logic... I'm only submitting my opinions, which do not require logic...). And it's not because they look geeky, it's not because they are awkward... I just don't like them! If someone asked why you don't eat spinach (love it!), you probably wouldn't say "the salycilic adic comines with the tri-nuclaic polymar bases to form..." You'd just say you don't like it. I don't like helmets. Dangerous without? Yep. I'm sure it is. But I'd be safer climbing 5.8 splitters that I could place gear every 3' in. I think what it boils down to is climbing (for me) is about freedom, and freedom to do things safely or dangerously. AND, I much appreciate how the comments so far have been "this is what I do, and this is why" and NOT "people who do (don't do) this are dumb because..." We respect each other's freedom of choice. (now isn't that cute!)

Wilson Headwall on Rainier is an un-crowded, asthetically pleasing, non-insane route up the mountain that offers noderate technical challenges and great views. North Buttress of Chamioux peak in BC is a easy, fun, nice looking climb. It also has an easy approach!

I worked on a ranger dist on the wenatchee and had the ... pleasure of working with Mr. Inthout several times. He's a jerk, and it's too bad he's in law enforcement. I've heard stories from within the FS that don't paint a pretty picture of him. Too bad he's not stuck in some soils lab titrating deer crap till he's blue in the face!

I'm not into the bolt/anti-bolt scene in the PNW enough to know where bolting is an issue. So I can't answer the first question. As to your second comment, yes, I agree. If land amnagers say "hey, this bolting thing is getting out of comtrol. They look bad and they violate the wilderness ethic, and ...blah blah blah..." and climbers have a mechanism to reduce and control fixed anchors, the land managers are more likely to say, "Ok, you folks seem to be able to take care of this yourself. Therre's a system inplace. If it's not broken, don't fix it" But, on the other hand, if therre is no climber-controled system in place, and the land managers find themselves in need of a system, the quickest and easiest thing they can do is shut the whole thing down. A Ban on fixed anchors. And I would say that it's in the best interest of climbers of all ethical pursuations to have the control to limit fixed anchors, with exceptions for potentially awesome climbs. But, like you say, I don't think there is enough of a fixed anchor problem in the land managers eyes (yet) to initiate action limiting fixed anchors, nor do I think there is enough unity in the climbing community in PNW to allow for a fixed anchor commision that is obeyed. There would always be rogue bolter and bolt choppers that would ruin it for the climbers trying to retain some control and limit the loss of power to governmental agencies (does this say something about those who chop anchors in defiance of public sentiment? yes. They make land owners less inclined to leave the power of bolting in the hands of the climbing community) ok, enough. What i should FINISH w/ is simply saying PNW climbers should keep these types of groups in the back of their mind; even though it might not be a problem now, they're going to be faced with the issue in the future.

quote: Originally posted by erikn: It would take quite a bit of effort (and ability to endure criticism) on someone's part to set up the process. I imagine it only happened at Eldorado Canyon because the alternative was a government imposed ban on new fixed hardware. Right. It would be a lot of effort and I admitt I'm too lazy to do it. And like you say, I think the fixed anchor committee was formed because the only other option was no more anchors at all! So, it seems like the punchline is that if climbers can take care of the bolting issue themselves in a structured way (i.e. not placing bolts w/o community concensus and not wanking bolts on midnight missions....), the non-climbing governing bodies will let the climbers take care of themselves. I think this idea could be used at ANY of the locations in WA that are under government scrutiny for climber impacts.

PLEASE! Good God, PLEAE! Read this and make NEW comments... let's not get into the bolt thing again. I thought people might like to look at what other communities are doing and think about cc.com as a tool for future use-specific management groups. http://www.climbingboulder.com/community/fhrc/

Who's this arron Dunlap fellow and how does Dru know him?

The Great Trog: Don't make a vacation out of it. I went there and.. it's a big rock you ca nsleep under. That's about it. BUT, the noksack Cirque is AWESOME! This would be a great p[lace to have a party or bring a non-climber type for a good mountain experience. It's about 2 miles in and once your in, it's all about a deep cirque with Mt Shuksan as a backdrop.

speaking of skins: anybody have a used pair to sell? grouchous_rex@yahoo.com

two things: 1. from a tech standpoint, I bet a good boulder-er could move into the cragging (note I didn't say climbing) realm and get good quicker than a good climber could move into the bouldering scene and get good. Bouldering is so intense, it just seems you'll get real good real quick. 2. jason_h: you wouldn't ahppen to be a jason_h living in a certain southern state that begins with A, would you? I visited a jason in Flagstaff this spring that was from my HT while up from cochise...

ok, I'm a dumb-ass.

What's the fun of a 14'er when you can "bag three of them in a day?" Sounds like a real challenge.

I just moved from Bellingham to Boulder CO. All I want to tell you folks is: 1. CO isn't as awsome as people make it out to be. Don't get me wrong, this place rocks, but it might not be the promised land you think it is. Which actually leads to my second point... 2. PNW frickin' rocks the alpine. CO has 1.5 glaciers and a couple of pathetic snow fields. I've been troppin around a fair amount and I just keep asking myself "where are the icefalls?" Where's the gapping crevasse? What about lush alpine meadows? Roaring rivers?" Like I say, CO's got some pretty cool stuff, but don't let any SUV driving yuppy go on too long about how dank CO is for climbers. 3. We'll see how things are come ice season! just sharing, dave

yep. love goofy things. I think one way to look at it is wh ydid people evolve from mountaineering/alpine stuff to cragging? I suspect it was the "practice" thing, but it definately moved beyond that. Now I'm sure most rock climbers would answer "no" if you asked whether or not they were training for the alpine. and so it is w/ bouldering. I think it's moved from training to something on it's own. So I haven't answer "Why is it goofy" Well, I think since being goofy is a judgement/opinion thing, it's like asking "why does guacamole taste good/bad" ya' can't answer it. Yeah, those pads seemed silly to me too. I just moved to Boulder and I went to this bouldering area.. oh Lord! SCARY landings in huge rock and general yuck. I will also say there has been a shameless marketing campain of bouldering-specific clothing and to some extent, gear. But this is true in general: marketing is going nuts. dave

well, I know it's not current conditions and you're probably already up to speed on both these routes, but I thought I'd take the time to advertise a freinds website. http://www.wwu.edu/~berdind toodles

no. Max.

I'm looking for someone to climb w/ Friday. I'd prefer squamish, but anything within 2 hours of Bellingham would be fine. Leavenworth or Index would be fine too. I guess some alpine would be fine, too. grouchous_rex@yahoo.com

Kevin: It's a date. I challenge anyone else interested in the climbing scene in Leavenworth to meet me at the Icicle Crag at 8:00 am on Saturday. We'll do just that: head up to the road and pull weeds for an hour. Take a break (beer provided if it's hot! Like Lucky?) maybe pick up some trash, then head for the crags (or the clinics, if you're interested.) Who's down on this? Climbers: Put your muscle where your mouth is.

e-dog: ironic. I bought these shoes in Thailnd. SHARP limestone. But I would disagree that boreal rubber "sucks ass". Nut it's ok that we disagree 'cause your opinion sucks! And clue me into the "enjoy your life before i take control!" part ?

Practice, practice, practice! With regards to the reading vs instructions: yes, it's nice to have a guide, but these people can only show you so much in 4 (?) days. I still think someone can go out, practice, revise, prctice, revise, etc... and come to a point where they know they've reach a competancy level they're comfortable with. Call me bold and individualistic... Working with others helps too because they may see faults, shortcut, or improvement to the system you develop, not to mention improve their own setups. Remeber: Practice!