max

For Sale: -Size 8 Boreal Matrix(es). Super soft, sticky rubber, slinky, sporty/slab shoe. Great shape, wore them less than a dozen times. 50$ obo -size 10.5 Boreal Ballet Golds. Super stiff, thick rubber, clean leather. Good alpine/wide crack shoe. Alos in excellent shape. $50 obo -Assorted scraps of webbing and old booty. Couldn't have been on the tops of climbs more than three years. Assorted (faded) colors, various lengths and widths. Great for beginners and those taking the Mountaineers course 5.3 pounds bulk. $4 obo contact me at grouchous_rex@yahoo.com

Tip: Practice. I know this sounds silly, but you might be suprised at how many people read a book, do the setups in their living room, read the book again, and feel comfortable. And it's even more important to practice the two person rescues than threee or four person rescues... I know I studied up a bit, thought about it (always good...) and did a few mock rescues. I felt ready. Then on a whim (yikes!) decided to do some practice on the coleman w/ my girlfriend... boy did we learn something! The jist of it was that it's much harder than you might first imagine and you've got to have you shit dialed! The whole process is much more sensitive to becoming really hard really quick than three or four person rescues. One more thing: I've often seen people in two person teams making a critical mistake: they have more rope between themselves than on the tails. For a good setup, you've got to have longer tails than the rope between the two of you. And finally, to address you actual question : REI the classic book... Glacier Travel and Crevase Rescue... Andy Selters? Mountaineer types, help me out here!

hey freak: I didn't mean to give you a hard time about spraying... I was joking. Thanks for the info. Black rock. Check. Been there. Good stuff, but I've heard it has a new owner and acess is iffy.

Pedestrian Bridge? In Wenatchee? Been there. Fecal Freak? hmmm. I did do some bouldering once on the east side (near the Ped beidge...) and stepped in human shit once... Otherwise I'm a bit lost. Hey everyone: you should tell me PLACES, not just names. I guess I could finish up this summer and spray about "cranking v8's at the freak bridge" or whatever... But I'd rather just do a little climbing! Thanks!

Knuckledoom cliff? More info, please... Also nick. I've seen and diddled (no, not urinated...) on those boulders near Top Foods. Thanks, ya'll p.s.: limited ethics? why, I oughta' kick you in the ...

I looked through the smiles options for a post heading... dang. no middle finger. Hey AlpineK: I think someone else commented on this before: looking at someones profile doesn't tell you shit about where they live, let alone where they climb. I'm not going to get into the last three continuous months I just spent climbing outside of the state, I'm just going to leave it "you don't know squat about meor where or how I climb!" Idiot. Really, do you think that makes you look smart? Pope: ditto on the "idiot" for you. try reading it again and just for fun, assume you didn't catch the real meaning the first time. Maybe you'll catch on. And you people have missed my point about the locals thing (probably my fault...)What I'm saying is locals have the say. I don't care if they comprise 2% of the climbing population, they get the say. What I forgot to add to my rant before was that the index people are the ones who get to say what happens at index. And for any particular area, if the locals want to "violate" it, it's thiers to do so. As I said before, this is difficult to defend because it is fundamental. Ever heard of "states rights?" ---"And you, Max, I don't live in @#$@% Seattle or @#$#Q$%#$Index and as far as I'm concerned it's irrelevant." yes. This is missing my point. It is relevant. Ever heard of land ethic? It might seem ironic to quote Leponld in defending (at least as a Devil's advocate) bolters, but those that are most intimate with a land are most deserving to direct it's future (ok, it's not a quote...) ---"I don't care who lives in Index because no one there owns the wall," see my comment above. ---"and I'm still entitled to my opinion as a climber." Yes, your entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean anyone should listen. A final note (and sorry if it seems cliche "sportsman"-like): Nice work Top Step.

Donna: When I said local, I meant LOCAL. Do you live in index? great. do you live in seattle. Well then F$%k off! Another thing: just because "it used to be that EVERY bolt was an ethical decision" doesn't mean that that's the right thing. It used to be that littering was fine, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing or that by choosing to not litter, we've deviated from a purer ethical state. (Logicize that!) And chill on the "Hey Guys, all of you (and you all seem to be guys):" comments. What the hell is that supposed to me? And Don't tell me "your reading too much into" What the spank am I supposed to do when you make a comment like that without clearly stating you point. Or am I to assume you just wrote that for no reason, with no point in mind. In which case, the likelyhood you can form and articulate any coherent thought is reduced. Now I'll make the disclaimer A.k., pope and others have made: I'm not that hot on bolts either, but it really pisses me of when somebody gets a rightous stick in their bum and rants! Go chop bolts or what ever, just don't rant (and I'm not talking to you in particular, Donna) Keep it on the low down! (just like I have in this post ).

erik: are you in the 'ham?

I'm spending the summer in Entiat. I'm wondering if anyone knows of bouldering or even any roped climbing in the valley, or even close (not Leavenwoth/Peshastin...).

Good discussion. I'm glad to see people energized about the topic, but still (relatively) civil. My thoughts: 1. I think the route setting/retrobolting standards for a particular climbing area should be decided upon by the LOCAL climers. This means local climbers need to organize, determine, and pubicise how they think routes should be created and protected. I would point to two climbing areas that have done just this. Read the smith guide book. In the begining, the dude (Alan Watts?) outlines the areas ethics well (generally rap bolting ok, no chipping, glueing's ok, be descrete...) And it seems people follow by these ethics. The other area, Paradise Forks, has said "No Bolts. Period" ok ok, they have two bolts in the whole (or should I say "hole"?) area. And new bolts get chopped. The bottom line is people see that a concencous has been formed and realize their deviations will not be tolerated. 2. Climbers need to be active in determining and diseminating these standards. I think most people would agree that keeping "The Man" out of climbing decisions is good for climbing, AS LONG AS CLIMBERS CAN MANGAGE THEMSELVES. Don't want regulations? Form a local group and get the word out! I'd point towards Red Rocks, Smith, Devils Tower.... 3. This ones the kicker. Notice in #1 I said "standards for a particular climbing area should be decided upon by the LOCAL climers." This ones the kicker. I think most people would respond with "these resourses are everyones resourses. No one has the right to destroy "public" property." I think this is right along the lines of the growth management issues going on on the east side. I feel locals should have control of their local public lands. Maybe it's my "I hate you you #*@$ing 206'ers" shining through I get tired of westsiders telling rural's on the east side how they should manage thier lands! I digress. Local control. Justifying it is difficult because I take it as a fundamental. And if you're not a local and want a say, drive to the meetings, hang at the crags, and be active and let your voice be heard, but don't cry to daddy if your opinion doesn't reign.

you guys are lame. I wasn't asking for advise, I was trying to spur some thought.

ok. I've read (some) of the postings in the recent threads about fees and about bolting on Concord. It made me think about adventure. Ok, let me digress a bit into each thread, then pose my question. First, bolts remove some of the thrill/adventure of climbing. Second, fees make it harder to adventure (hard for me to climb Serpentine Arete when I can't get a permit) and they also just remind me that ten thousand other poeple want to do what I'm doing. How novel. So my question: What do we do to find new adventure? New sport? New areas? New styles? New Spandex?

sorry to be an ass, but have you ever thought about getting out of your car and walking around looking for it? You'd be amazed at the cool bugs you'll see in the grass and the interesting things the clouds do when they're not going by at 65. again, sorry to be a grump ass.

oh yeah. And about snowmachines on baker. If the law allows it, they should be able to be there. It's an acess issue just like climber at the favorite crag... By the books, baby.

First, I'd argee with the fellow/gal above who noted the high-and-mighty (I had to use "high-and-mighty" 'cause I ain't able to spell righcous!) attitudes of climbers. Yeah I don't like the sound of them, and I particularly don't like to smell of them, but I've spend a moderate amount of time in the b.c. and I've only seen them a few times... THey're really not that much of a problem to me. I honestly believe that what's at the root of the issue here is not a conflict of land use principles. It's a conclict of... for lack of better term, social class. Ok, easy easy easy. I don't mean "class" as a rating, maybe groups. How many times have your climbing buddies made fur of hicks, of women, of old people, of punk teenagers... you name it. Humans are great at cliquing up and making fun of people who are different. And I think this is what's at the root of the snowmachine thing. Climbers can't resepect someone who isn't into masocistic slogging for an outdoor experience. We're elitist snobs. Second. I do know that snow mobiles cause significant soil compaction. Preivouslt this was thought not to be a problem. It was assumed the deep snowapck protected soils. But recently it has been found that ...DANM! What were those numbers? They cause soil compaction and thats just plain bad and un-American. toodles

Dodging the whole "sport climbing" issue for a moment, I'd have to ask who thinks Washington Pass really is that much of an adventure area? I mean really, you drive to within a half hour of your climb, you see tons of people, you have fifty seven topos at your disposal, and the approaches are really a discrase to the cascade tradition. So all you "I hate sport climbers" out there, I think Washington Pass already has made the slide towards sport climbing. I mean, isn't what I've described a better definition of sport climbing rather than bolts?

hey, this prob. doesn't apply to you, but I FOUND some booty at the base of cinnamon slag...probably March 23rd? It was the day before most people got rained out. Like I say, it doesn't apply to you but maybe the rightful owner will see this. Email me directly at grouchous_rex@yahoo.com and I might be able to help you get "it" back.

No. No offence, but that's a terrible idea. First, the 5.6 part of YDS works just fine. Second, the V3 system works just fine for bouldering. And finally, the scrambling/ "interesting" starts/ anomonies have never seemed to pose that much of a problem. "Exposed scambling" seems to say it just fine. 3.7? It's just way too techno-geek... It's definately bee a long winter... dave

Does anybody have any experience w/ camp 4? I'm headed down with another guy and a set-up VW bus. My question: where can we park this beast and cook and sleep? I think I read in the guide book Camp 4 proper is cheap ($3 ?) but it's walk in, and that there is "car camping" but it's expensive ($15 ?). Can people discretely pull to the side of the road? I just want to park and sleep! dave

The video "Hard Grit" starts with a UGLY fall of... 25-30 feet. It's not the distance the guy falls, it how he hits the rock and starts spinning that makes you cringe. FYI: "Hard Grit" isn't that great.

grouchous_rex@yahoo.com I'm leaving town in a bit, but drop me a line and I know several people looking for more climbing partners. Send me you're phone # and we can talk. dave

Dave Page: looser. NOthing personal, but I've had two bad and no good experiences with the guy's work. First time it took two weeks from the time they arrived at him shop to the time I got shoes back. Second time the shoes came back with gaps, ans big ones, in the toe rand/sole interface. I've heard hew has lackies that do work for him. Sounds crazy, but I've sent two pairs to a woman in Las Vegas: Red Rock Resoles. http://www.redrockresole.com/ Awesome. Got my shoes back in less than a week and she did a nice job. And her rates were as good as anyone elses. Plus, she was nice.

Aproach shoes: dumb. Save your money for something else. In my opinion, there is no gap between the domains of sandles, tennis shoes, and a pair of hiking boots. I think approach shoes are just glorified tennis shoes with special rubber that wears off quick. And, I think they're the geekiest things I've ever seen. When ever I see anyone wearing them, I just laugh at a sucker fooled into thinking they've got something special. That's a tangent. The bottom line: they're just tennis shoes and I suppose you've already got a pair of those; save your money.

Tell me what you know about current conditions for the following routes/approaches: -chair N face (the pop. ice route) -the tooth (s face...) -that big one right on the highway near chair. (Guye?) -the road leading up to Longs pass trail (Ingal's Peak). Anybody know the snow level in Cle Elum? -Mt Persis. Ski routes? (no crazies, please...) -Whitehorse (n gully...) -Driving up towards Big Four. Thanks in advance.

Here's what I can tell you: I went to the twins sisters (the Cascade ones...) last weekend and ddid a north/ west facing route. Snow conditions were good/ just better than good. The snow pack consisted of consolidated but onlt moderatly cohesive layers toppped by a .5 to 2" layer of frozen water/ rain/ melted snow that was full on icy. Stability wise: seemed ok. Travel wise: excellent. Crampons and no snow shoes. As far as approach: I'd bet it's pretty good. We were (almost) snow free to about .... 4500. I think this would get you and oyu car to the trailhead. These are my experiences on the Twins, but i bet baker is pretty close. Also, the last week has seen some new snow, not much, but this probably would come into play. That's all I know. Well, I also know I'm supposed to be working now, but...