Courtenay

Eerie outlines an interval workout that might prove useful -- for much more on including interval training and its variations in your own program, feel free to read the following article: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2FartlekIntervals.asp I'd suggest you only include interval training (at first) once or twice a week, as they are high intensity and require proper recovery; added to your program, however, they can help raise your lactate threshold, increase your cardiovascular capacity at altitude, AND help improve body composition, a major factor for climbers who want as much lean, "functional" muscle mass as possible while being as light as they can...

Fascinating, Fairweather -- delve into that further: perhaps you have more leg strength (what is your pack comparison when doing uphills vs. your training buddy?) or more glutes (the uphill muscles vs. quads, descents/ running muscles) but less experience with the sheer cardio endurance of a 13 mile run? I'd say some of that is probably due to familiarity with the distance -- how many has your partner done? And how does your running training differ? I firmly believe climbing training and distance running are actually quite different, (uphills vs. flat as one obvious component -- hence muscles used) though there are obviously plenty of people who use running to get in cardio shape for climbing... Can you share any other differences? Or I'd be happy to take this up with you offline, it's fascinating to me!

Another possible cause of cramps is use of creatine -- nowhere did you mention that you supplement with this, so I'm assuming it's not your case, but I know some strength athletes who were taking extra creatine, cramping badly on endurance outings, and as soon as they stopped using creatine the cramping ceased. What I suggest most often is drinking a diluted juice of some sort -- whether that's in the form of Cytomax, Powerade or Gatorade, or the like doesn't matter so much, but having moderate carbs with your beverage also provides more endurance. Try different dilutions and see what works best for you.

original question: <<I run 3-4 times a week, roughly 3.5 miles at a time. The circuit is mostly flat, with the final mile turning up hill and the last 1/2 mile could actually be considered uphill. With all that said, when I go to the mountains, I do not feel like my cardio is in very good shape, as soon as I start hiking up hill, I feel like I'm under a huge load and working very hard even at an easy pace. I'm wondering what other exercises I can do to improve my cardio response. >> I took another look at your original question, and it looks like you could benefit not only from intervals but also specifically going up hills -- whether that's on a stepmill, stairmaster, or pack work up and down a hill. Start with 20-25 minutes of up and down hill work (running is one option, carrying a pack another more closely related to climbing) and try to push yourself harder with each workout. I wouldn't necessarily throw in a 12 mile run, if you're struggling with 3.5 miles -- that's not what you seem to be most concerned about -- but do include a longer hike on weekends when you have a chance, and gradually increase the pack weight for leg-specific strength endurance. The more muscle you have in your legs (and YES, you CAN gain muscle without gaining body weight, as it helps you reduce bodyfat by revving up the metabolism, and better to have active, functional muscle than passive fat!) the more SPEED AND POWER you can generate on uphills.

Another thing you might try if temp is an issue: knee wraps (not one of those tight things, or with a cut-out, but just to keep the joint warm) or layers so when you feel warmed up you can just strip a layer. Knee strengthening exercises, cross-training, and a gait analysis might also be in order. If the pain continued despite proper organization of your training program, consider the terrain you're running on -- if you mostly run indoors on a treadmill, you're going to want to restructure some of your time so you're gradually building up the mileage outside; and be sure you cycle through your shoes regularly. Ditto on orthotics, sometimes they cause issues in the rest of the body while the feet are adapting to the new position in the shoes. Good luck and keep us posted on improvement.

I've found loading up on carbs/protein the night before and morning of (Thai food is my very favorite) results in my not needing very much on a climb -- I can go 6-8 hours with a few bites of trail mix or chocolate if I've fueled well before hand. That's not necessarily what I recommend to everyone (having more frequent breaks for a drink/bite seems to work for many) but you need to find your own system that works for you. Gu is pretty much pure carbs, in somewhat liquid form, that will be easily and quickly assimilated -- but for more staying power, having snacks with a little fat and protein will mean you can go longer with fewer snacks because you won't be experiencing the sugar highs and crashes from pure carbs.

...and if you're facing a workout and you just dread starting it, it's probably your body's way of saying to take a break and do something else. Anything that gets you moving can be useful -- even if that's going for a swim instead of climbing -- you'll be using similar muscles, work cardio in a different way, maybe even provide some rehabilitative and mental breaks effects. Cross-training is different for everyone -- for some it might be a long stroll; for someone else who prefers running, going roller blading or biking would be non-impact options. If you've gotten tired of lifting, try a punching bag or work in the yard! Still working the muscles, but in a completely different way.

Good thread, all -- though too much mention of biking... Look closely at your original goals: being able to power up a mountain in as little time as possible. Sounds like interval training will be really beneficial -- check out our latest article here: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2FartlekIntervals.asp By including higher intensity work mixed in with one longer endurance workout (carrying a pack, in the mountains) and some strength training (30 minutes of squats, dips, lunges or deadlifts for the legs/core/lower back should be pretty easy to fit in once or twice a week for just about anyone) you will probably see some good improvement. And a swim here and there can be good cross-training, though remember if you're PRIMARILY swimming for mountaineering there won't be the spine-loading benefits or carry-over that other activities (hiking, jogging, stairs, elliptical, or -- yes -- even cycling) will have to your sport. Set some goals, be very clear what you want to attain, then design a program to get you closer to those goals. Or have a trainer design it for you...

Great topic. I like the climbing in threes suggestion -- another would be: on anything that scares you, perhaps the most obvious way to deal with fear is to follow it the first try so you have a very clear picture of where the tricky parts are -- just like learning any difficult sport route. Also, if any of you are into self-tracking, keep a notebook on the climbs and routes that you do or want to do, and include a listing of WHY -- is it fear you want to overcome, is it a route everyone says is awesome, is it a route that's turned you back before so it becomes more of a personal mission to conquer it -- all of these can give you ideas of what motivates you in your climbing. I like the request for books, I'll see if I can dig up some of my own recommendations.

...and best to rest them now so you don't keep re-injuring. Do you use tape as a preventative measure? Focus on stemming, manteling, lower-difficulty climbs, and avoid the sorts of moves that caused you problems in the first place. Make sure you're getting enough rest when you're climbing hard, and schedule in some easier days with harder, warm up properly, yada yada I'm sure you've heard it all before. PREVENTION is perhaps the best cure for tendinitis -- training smart in the first place so your body (especially tendons and ligaments, they take a lot longer to adapt than muscles) can adapt to the gradual overloading. Keep us posted.

Gad, I lost a few pounds just reading about some of the disgusting foods people eat!! But to be honest, if you want to put on the pounds, it's better to just eat more (NOT necessarily more fat, y'all!) above and beyond what you expend on a regular basis. Peanut butter is one of the better foods for you -- protein, "good" fats, and (most people feel) good tasting. Just one more clarification: muscle and fat are completely different entities -- they don't "turn into" one another when you're gaining or losing weight. It just APPEARS as though, when you lose weight, it's "turned into muscle" but you had the muscle all along, it was just hidden under layers of fat. When I have clients training for a big climb like Denali, Aconcagua or Everest, I try to have them gain weight by adding as much muscle as possible (so when they start to waste away they still have enough to complete the tasks required while on the mountain and at altitude) but also try to eat as much as possible a month or so prior to going and while on the trip as well. BUT KEEP THE FOODS SENSIBLE and healthy, not a lot of crap -- because the crap won't give you the training performance you want leading up to the climb. Make sense?

Late, I know, but if you're still bothered by the shoulder/pec, you could try regular dumbbell presses (flat or incline) just lowering the weight so your elbows are at about 90 degrees (i.e. don't bring the weight all the way down to the shoulders as that can stretch an already tender area too much). Presses don't provide quite as much stretch as flyes -- perhaps you brought the weight back too far--easy to do on a machine that has you start from the pre-stretched position, and easy to do if you're working with dumbbells that are too heavy. Good stretches for the chest can also help, especially if you're doing primarily pulling movements and not a lot of horizontal or vertical pressing. Update us on your condition if you like.

Peter, There are as many different ways to work the abs as for any other muscle -- the key is variety. Hanging knee raises (or propped, or leaning on a bench, or ...) are actually more directly related to climbing than crunches on the floor because they more closely mimic the position you'd be in on overhung routes. Let's face it, there aren't a lot of times (don't even dare to get crass here, guys! ) when you are out in the mountains and starting any move lying on your back. Better to load the spine in an upright position which more closely simulates common alpine positions. And I don't want to have to come back here and delete a lot of messages, sprayers...

Forrest wrote: <<I also like your ideas about stacking heavy and light, rather than trying to do 2 equally difficult workouts at a time. Alternating muscle groups makes sense as well, i.e. the aerobic workout also requires some muscle workout to supply the movement, legs for running, arms for swimming, etc, so a stacked weight workout would work other areas. Of course, this is going to require more organization. I guess that's why people hire personal trainers, instead of just getting info off the internet, eh? >> Well, that does happen to be a big part of what I do with climbing clients -- you would never believe some of the things people are trying to do out there! I help sort it all out. But yes, you understand correctly -- if you're going to go out and do a really long outing (imagine doing the Pacific Crest Trail from border to border!!) then you're going to need ongoing conditioning to prepare you properly. Doing a series of 4-5 day climbing trips in the summer means during the off season, you'll want to build as much strength and cardiovascular endurance so that you can start to link it together the closer you get to the climbs. Back-to-back days in the mountains is one way of doing it; longer workouts in the gym (for fair-weather climbers) is another. Good luck and thanks for inviting comments.

Hi all, Sorry for my absence, I'm no longer getting notified of new posts for some reason (grumble grumble). I've been asked to add my $.02 here, and actually Jon hits the nail on the head with his comment: <<.. first, what is the point? Are you trying to build up your muscle/strength endurance or your maximum strength? If it's the later you definitely don't want to do it when your body is already wasted. >> Think very hard about the actual strength/endurance you'll need in the mountains and train as close as possible for that. Think as well about your unique strengths and weaknesses. You may have the endurance of a horse but lack strength, in which case you're going to put more effort into smart, efficient strength training and probably put it before any cardio, if you choose to stack. If you know that you're going to have to perform for 3-4 or more straight days (Bailey Range traverse, Denali, etc. etc. requiring endurance as well as strength endurance) and you never do more than an hour or two of any consecutive strength/cardio effort during a given week, you're probably not training as effectively as you could be. That's where conditioners come into play that combine both. However, rest is as important as the training, so 85-95% of the time you'll want to optimize your training effort by separating aerobic and strength days OR putting a few rest hours between effort. High intensity interval training (HIIT -- NOT to be confused with single-set HIT please!) done prior to a max effort legs workout, for example, will probably result in extreme fatigue and too-long recovery, whereas if you can do a hard aerobic/interval workout one day and a lighter upper body strength workout later in that same day, then a long distance medium effort cardio workout the following day, follwed by a rest day and then reverse it with hard swimming (upper intervals, for example) and a legs workout, that would work. As for "training to failure" it's our experience at Body Results that keeping a "reserve of two" almost all the time will mean better results (for strength) and better recovery -- see our article: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2RPE.asp for how the Rate of Perceived Exertion relates to strength training.

It was brought to my attention this week that posts on the Fitness Forum were stacking up and people were starting to notice my absence. I'm back. Nice to be missed. Once I have a moment I'll start chiming in on threads that have been going since 11/21 (when I last was notified of posts) if I can contribute something helpful you haven't already been discussing. Sorry for my silence, it won't happen again! Happy new year, all!

Another thought sparked by mention of the heart rate monitor: you can actually use resting heart rate as an indicator of overtraining. First thing in the morning, see what your heart rate is before you get out of bed. Track that for a week when you're feeling good. If you're at all in doubt whether you should work out that day, check RHR; if it's elevated more than a few beats above normal, then you probably need more recovery time. Same with temperature -- which is remarkably consistent -- if it strays more than a degree up or down from baseline, then your body is probably in need of rest.

Having experienced my share of "breaks", though not an ankle, I'd say whatever you can do to maintain your muscle mass will help in the long run. Obviously for the broken fibia and fractured talus, you're going to want to do unloaded lower body exercises -- you can do plenty for the upper body in a seated position, and even use an upper body ergometer, maybe swimming when the cast comes off, but for now for the legs, you can do leg raises from a supine (on back), prone (on stomach) and side positions to keep the hips, glutes and quads active and increase blood flow to the lower extremities. And make sure you get plenty of protein. I'd strongly encourage you do any strengthening in conjunction with the recommendations from your sports med team (hopefully they believe in an aggressive approach.) Above all else, avoid anything that will set you back any further. Breaks are serious. PT will help. But you'll likely need to do quite a bit on your own post-PT to return you to where you want to be. Good luck.

Peter, Not a silly question at all. And the best answer to what constitutes rest: "it all depends." For someone in top notch physical condition, a 15 mile bike ride at a low working heart rate may be considered a "rest/recovery" day if it doesn't tax that person's body in any way; for someone who is unfit, that 15 mile bike ride might be their hardest workout in the week. If a climber can go 4-5 days straight on a strenuous backpacking/cross-country traverse trip and feel really good, then an hour of light cross-training such as swimming or roller blading might be okay. HOWEVER, when looking at loaded workouts (i.e. heavy backpacking=legs; hard climbing=upper body) then a "recovery day" might be uan nloaded, very sub-maximal workout (in terms of heart rate and effort) such as a walk, swim, or bike ride. Rule of thumb: if you're feeling like you need a break, take it; if you feel antsy and want to do something, do so, but recognize that too many workout days in a row without "resting" can compromise your recovery rate and lead to overreaching/overtraining/illness. Hope that helps.

Bronc, If I might interject a few words here: we don't endorse everything on other web sites included as Body Results links, steroids being one. While it's healthy to have a curiosity about such subjects, for one's own education, it was certainly not our intention to say to any of our readers that "steroids are acceptable." We don't recommend use of them for anyone due to the sometimes severe side effects and long term consequences. I'm not aware of any studies on climbers per se, so it's certainly an interesting intellectual exercise. While I cannot steer you one way or another, I'd suggest that for anyone seriously thinking about using, they do MUCH more research and talk to people who have actually used before embarking on that route. If I see anything on the subject I'll certainly remember to post it where I saw it first: here. My $.02. [ 11-14-2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Courtenay ]

Hey Dr. here's another take on SuperSlow training, pro's and con's and its applications for athletes: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2SuperSlow.asp. Best advice: if you're at a plateau and looking for some variety in your program, you may want to give it a shot, but I'd limit it to about 4-6 weeks max. If your goal is to be more explosive (for dynos) or stronger (from more reps/heavier weights) I'd highly recommend you try a periodized program designed specifically for you and your goals.

Actually, there's a little bit of semantic misunderstanding being presented here: if time under tension -- the time it takes to complete a set or rep-- were the main factor required to build muscles, then SuperSlow would work. What may be even MORE important is 1. the load as a percentage of your maximum for a given exercise, 2. the number of repetitions, 3. the recovery time--rest interval and frequency you're working a muscle group during the course of a week. Case in point just as an example: powerlifters and Olympic style lifters will do few reps but many sets over and over at substantial load, and they have MEGA muscle mass. But so do some bodybuilders and some climbers, though most would prefer not to have too much, as they'd have to hoist it up the rock with them. So the question: So if you are doing your reps really fast anyway in under that time, then you really aren't building muscle? You may be, but not OPTIMALLY, and said person may be using a lot of momentum and breaking down on form. Another statement: Also, I try and incorporate negatives as much as possible in my workouts and reps so that I use explosive power on the way up --curls in this example-- but lower the weight slowly. A "negative" is actually lowering MORE weight than you can concentrically lift -- like stepping off a box with a very heavy backpack and as slowly as possible lowering to the floor, but so much weight that you can't lift it-- so what you're explaining above is simply a slow lowering, or eccentric, phase, a "normal rep". Another statement: I also do negatives with pull ups. Trying to pull up as fast as possible, but lowering or even holding at certain portions on the descent. ALso having someone pull on your shoulders as you try and hang up there gives me a good workout as well. Courtnay, am I doing anything wrong or is this helping? No, these are all good options -- as long as you don't overtrain i.e. limit TRUE negatives as I described them above to once every ten days, but the way you describe how you're doing reps is fine, faster on the way up and slower on the way down. That's actually a normal rep, not "negative." Hope this helps. Sorry it's so long.

Boltclipper, Freeclimb9 and the rest -- << Question is, if you don't train peaks, at what point are you physically not able to improve? I do no training other than bouldering my brains out at the gym three days a week, if anyone's wondering.>> If you don't have some sort of "goal" you're working towards, or a program oriented toward that goal, you may find that at the start of each season (doing the same thing on off-season you've done in previous years) you're back to where you were last season; it's not that you're physically not able to improve, it's more a matter of a lack of optimum training. With optimum training, however, you can keep improving for years, ALTHOUGH the improvement will never be as dramatic as in the first year or two of a periodized program, because the body always adapts to whatever changes you throw at it. The suggestions of periodizing your program are all good, and www.bodyresults.com has a number of examples of how to do that.

Aaron, The "best time" to stretch is when you can consistently do so -- I suggest putting static (hold for 30+ seconds) stretches at the end of the workout when the tendons, muscles and ligaments have been worked and the core temperature has been elevated; however, for general warmups, more dynamic or active stretches are fine to increase range of motion -- i.e. leg swings, windmills (as swimmers do before getting in the pool), unweighted or lightly weighted exercises (sets of 3-4 reps with a fraction of your weight) to increase ROM and get the blood moving. For runners, hikers, or bikers (i.e. cardio warmup), I suggest starting out at a light pace, gradually increasing to target and then stretch thoroughly afterwards.

Excellent point Llama raises -- and another along the same lines is looking at what might be different THIS hike compared to others -- it may be a case of 1) different footwear, 2) forgetting trekking poles (if you usually use them), 3) getting a pebble in your shoe that alters your stride (I'm serious on this one!!) or 4) your pack riding uncomfortably -- the latter two cases can cause you to unconsciously use different muscles to the tune of unusual soreness and pain, but which (if you can determine what was different) goes away the very next climb. So good point: find out what's CAUSING the pain -- whether outside sources, muscle imbalance, tightness (that stretching might help) or nutrition (hydration, anti-oxidants and adequate protein for repair.)