Courtenay

Texplorer, that's another good way -- called "pyramiding" -- but what I was suggesting is the following: 3 (rest 3) do 4 (rest 4) do 5 (rest 5) until you can't complete the upper number, then drop down again to 3 (rest 3) do 4 (rest 4 etc.) until you fail again, then continue in like fashion until you can't do 3. After trying this in 5-6 workouts, then test your pullup endurance again. I had someone recently increase max reps by 7 pullups over the course of 3 weeks of ladder training and weight-added training.

AJ wrote: << back to Chris Wall's recent article in Rock & Ice (#113). He seems to be an advocate of doing very heavy low repetitions (with good form) to build strength without building mass. It would seem that calf strength is as much of an endurance problem for ice climbing as it is power, but is there any credence to what he says as it might apply to calves? >> Chris is trying to get people to realize that to improve endurance you don't ALWAYS want to just :train endurance: -- sometimes it is prudent to train in the strength range of reps as well. If you forever train in the 12-20 reps range, there's only a certain weight you can handle. By training in the 4-8 rep range, your body (particularly nervous system, which takes longer to adapt than the muscular system) gets used to the heavier weight so that eventually you will be able to handle that new weight for more repetitions -- moving strength AND endurance to the next level. Hope that helps. As to calves, since MOST climbers want endurance in calves (whether for uphill climbing, vertical rock, or ice climbing) the bulk of your training will be high repetitions and body weight plus perhaps pack; by throwing in the occasional 1-2 weeks of high weight/low rep training, you'll move the whole threshold up. Good luck.

Hi David, You wrote: << I'd just like to say I really appreciate Courtenay's posts. She obviously knows what she is talking about and fortunately doesn't get too much spray on this thread. I wonder if she reads the rest of our posts and wonders who we really are! But here's my question....Do you have much of a problem with our 12 oz. curls? >> Thanks, David. For spray, you should have seen what happened over on the pullups/lat pull thread. I read everything that comes through Fitness, just don't always have time to respond right away. No prob with 12 oz. curls except to say they should probably be 20x heavier!!! After all, you guys are all climbers, right??

Jon asked: << I read an article about how researchers took two college football teams and had them do identical lifting routines except one of the teams focused on doing their reps with a high level of explosiveness, accelerating through the repetition. I guess this group had significantly greater improvements not only in strength but in running speed. >> Actually, a number of studies show that to be powerful, you'd benefit from powerful, explosive lifting as in the case of Olympic-style lifters, sprinters, etc. who train with cleans, snatches, hang pulls and the like. If you train slowly (as Superslow proponents do) you will BE slow. Hence those people who want to be really dynamic on the wall might include jumps to holds (dynos, but in training, not just on a route) in order to get tendons and ligaments prepared for such movements. CAUTION: very tough on joints -- do NOT attempt unless you have a high level of conditioning and climbing skill! But as to training with more "oomph", try it out -- on a bench press, for example, or pullup, compare the exertion of a 3 second lift to one that takes a second -- the muscles have to contract much more forcefully to get you up in a second than in three. Another "but": if you are training for ENDURANCE, not so much POWER, keep reps slow and steady, as that increases the time under tension (i.e. lengthens the set.)

Jon wrote: << Have those of you doing lat pulls tried mixing in negatives? I usually do these really slowly and get a good burn going. I'll do about 10-15 reps and then try to do about 2-3 negatives at the end of each set. >> Another idea: 1/4 paused drops -- meaning once you can no longer do a positive (pulling part of the repetition) drop 1/4 of the way down and hang there, still, for 2-4 seconds; lower another 1/4 so you're half way down, pause 2-4 seconds; lower to 3/4, pause, then all the way down. Taxing, only do on the last repetition of the last set. You should be able to add a pullup or two the next time you do pullups, IF you've had adequate rest. If at any point you CAN'T equal your previous workouts' attempts, TAKE A BREAK, your nervous system may need more recovery time.

FYI this comes from an insert in Milo V. 9#3, December 2001 (Merle Meeter): One-arm records: Robert Chisnall, 22 1-armed chins at bodyweight (BWT) 130#? (note: he isn't a climber, but this was the Guiness World Record!!)Burt Asirati 3 at BWT 240# John Brookfield, 1 1-arm chin at BWT 250 (he also holds 2-arm record of 6 at BWT 250 +200 pounds!!) Record for 2-arm chins: Lee Chin Yong, 370 at BWT 140#!! (another Guiness record!) That's a lot of pulling!!! Wish I knew records for climbers -- anyone have something to add?

Recently on the pullups/pull downs thread the one-arm pullup came up. Suggestions on how to train to be able to do one: 1) first, be able to do at least 15 bodyweight pullups before even attempting these next variations.2) Loop a towel over the bar and place your strong hand about 2 inches below the bar around towel, complete first set with weak arm around bar; second set, reverse hands, do as many as you can for twice through (4 sets.)3) Keep moving hands farther down the towel until you can get your chin above the bar with hand about 8 inches down the towel (i.e. little assistance)4) Then start to add negatives, with foot assistance on a bar or jibs, so you don't tweak tendons as the arms and back fatigue.

Dru wrote: << what about "typewriters" (pull up, lock off, shift back and forth between locked off arms, release, repeat). I have heard they are a better exercise for climbing than just sets of pull ups. Also, what about doing pullups on dowels hung from a pull up bar so the hands are in the same position as they would be when ice climbing. would that help? >> Definitely, pullups from dowels would help for pulling strength for ice climbing; palms forward pullups with different width grips will work really well for rock climbing; one-arm lat pulls (if you can't do one arm pullups!!) can also help you detect whether one arm is doing more of the work. Sounds like to me typewriters are more of an isometric-type training exercise; I'm sure they're an interesting variety, though I try to encourage people to work the muscles through as much range of motion as possible, rathern than overloading one position for too long. Hope this helps.

Dan wrote:<< How often do you suggest doing pullups? Everyday? Every other day? Currently I do two weight lifting workouts a week, (pullups, bench press, triceps extensions, wrist curls, biceps curls, hamstring curl, leg press, leg extension.) Should I be doing pullups on the off days as well?(On the off days I do staremaster, situps, trailrunning, climbing, etc) >> I'd suggest if you're climbing twice a week, add one day of pullups work; if you're climbing once a week, you can do pullups twice a week. I'd also suggest you put in one "endurance" day (as many pullups, or bodyweight-assisted pulls as you can stand) and one "strength" day -- weighted pulls, lock-offs, etc. that are in the 3-6 reps range. Just be attentive to what your body can tolerate. Those individuals used to a high level of work (climbing 5 days a week) might be able to get by with 3-4 days of climbing and 2 of pullups plus, but in general, for anyone who is more casual about training, shoot for 3 "pulling" workouts in a week and no more, or you may set yourself up for finger/elbow tendonitis issues.

In terms of proper (or lack thereof) physical conditioning and preparedness, what has been YOUR most difficult climb--be it rock, crag, alpine, ice or otherwise, but keep them outdoors, unless you want to start a new thread about gym climbs)--and why? What would you have done differently to be better prepared? What advice can you share with others about your experience?

Here's another break-in from the ice climbing thread: what's your favorite flat-land/non-ice way to train calves for ice climbing? I suggest sticking to standing calf raises of some sort (Universal, leg press machine, dumbbells, barbell, back pack or even the Smith machine) rather than seated calf raises or ballistic jumps (as in boxer's shuffle or jumping rope). Point being: try to keep legs straight so you can work the gastrocnemius, rather than the soleus (primarily worked with knees bent as in seated raises.) Dry tooling is also an option for some rock areas if ice conditions aren't what you expect. To train for muscular endurance in the calves, try this: start with 2-3 sets of 15 on your favorite 1-2 calf-strengthening exercises above and over time, build to 5 sets of 30 (2-leg, bodyweight to start, up to pack weight as you progress) and your calves won't have any trouble once you get out on the rock/ice. Emphasize the pause at the bottom for a full second (stretched position) and be sure to stretch well afterwards. Good luck!

Hey Sexual Chocolate, Glad to hear you're making progress. You might also want to try what some refer to as "ladder pullups" -- if you can do 12, do 3, rest 10 seconds or the time it would take a ghost climber to do 3; hop up and do 4, rest the time it would take someone else to do 4, do 5, and so forth until you can't do the next increment, then drop back down to 3, back to 4, etc. until you can't get your 3 reps done. Then rest 5-6 minutes and try again. VERY powerful endurance builder, though you may only want to do 2 or 3 sets, maybe twice a week. Give it a shot.

'kay gang, It's time to break "ice climbing" into components. Let me try to explain a little more carefully why I feel chinups and pullups do more for the rock and ice climber than lat pulls DEPENDING ON HOW THEY'RE DONE. I'd also insert that if you can't do pullups, but you have the choice between Gravitron or weight-assisted machine and the lat pull downs, go with the Gravitron. Why? Doing pullups, chinups or the Gravitron requires that you pull your body up rather than pulling something (bar, handle, etc) down to you. It requires the use of abdominals, shoulders, lats, biceps and muscles in the forearms. However, many people performing lat pull downs will brace legs under a knee pad, hence recruiting hip flexors and quads (and other smaller muscles involved in hip flexion) in addition to the muscles above. If you must work with the lat pull down, and your goal is to get as much transferrable strength to climbing, THEN get on your knees with feet behind you (much like the position you'd be in for Gravitron or pullups/chinups) and perform them that way. As for whether or not pullups help with ice and rock climbing, I'll say until my face turns blue (or until the cows come home -- whoh was talking about cow tipping on that last thread?? ) that the best training for climbing is climbing, BUT apart from that, IF you can in fact do pullups, they will never HURT your climbing in any way UNLESS you neglect taking the time to learn any technique and rely forever on your brute strength. While I agree that in many cases with rock and ice climbing you're NOT doing a pullup, in the event that you need to be able to pull over an edge, or are on something slightly overhung that causes you to keep popping off, you can bet your life that I'd want to be able to do several pullups if only to have the lat and arm endurance to make several attempts at topping out without expending any extra energy worrying that I didn't have the upper body strength needed! Hope this helps people understand where those of us who are pro-pullups are coming from.

...And, of course, the best training for ice climbing is... ICE CLIMBING. All the rest of this thread simply contains additional suggestions for you to try in order to get prepared (General Physical Preparation) until you can actually be out there on the ice.

Another great idea (specifically for ice climbing, since that was the original thread / question) is dowel pullups -- take different thicknesses, drill a hole in one of the ends and thread it with cord, then loop them over your squat rack or pullup bar. Wrap them with one layer of athletic tape so you have a better chance of hanging on. You can do hangs (for endurance) or pullups (for ice-climbing specific power/strength).

In response to << I think I just need to practice them a little more; practice at staying relaxed as I do them. And keeping my body long and straight as I do them. >> That's what I'd recommend -- though you might not get 22, you're better off getting fewer, slower, quality reps (with the occasional swinger for dyno practice!) that really tax the targeted muscles, rather than using the entire body to get you over the bar. << By the way, why do you think lat pull-downs are a waste of time? >> If your goal is to do pullups, doing lots of lat pull downs will do very little to assist you toward your goal. I've never had success (myself, or with many clients) switching to lat pull downs and maintaining lat strength for pullups. Must have something to do with the muscles recruited. If you've heard of "specificity", you'll know that in order to climb better, you've got to climb. Same for pullups: in order to improve pullups, you've got to do pullups. Good luck.

re: leg swing on pullups -- Give me a little more info and perhaps I can help. Do you use hip flexors and knee-up momentum to complete your pullups? If so, try crossing your ankles and keeping knees pointing down to the floor, body long from shoulders to knees instead of piking at the hips. Lift smoothly to the top until chin clears the bar, then lower to full hang. I can see "swinging" being a real problem on hanging knee raises for abdominal/core strength, but can you give me more info on body position that could cue me in to your "swinging" issue and how to correct it?

RE: pullup training: try the following, what some people refer to as ladder training (NOT campus board training; read on) If you can do 22-25 pullups in a row, then you may be a good candidate for ladders if you'd like to increase your stamina/endurance to be able to do more. Do this with a partner, or imagine a training partner doing his pullups while you're resting. Start by doing 6 pullups, then hop off and imagine your friend doing 6, then hop back up and do 7, rest while your partner does 7, and so on until you can't increase by a rep. Then (say you get up to 12) rest while your partner does those (12) and drop back down to your starting number, 6, and ramp up until you can no longer increase. That's a set. If this sounds like torture, or you can only do 6 or 8 before starting to swing like crazy, then drop down to maybe 4-7 as your starting number. See http://www.bodyresults.com/E2ladder.htm for more details. Another suggestion, depending on your goal, is to add weight (vest, ankle weights, fanny pack, or backpack) and work on increasing your strength until you can do 8-10 pullups with 10-20# on, then try pullups again and see if you're increasing endurance. If your gripe is primarily about swinging, try using a pullup bar that is a little lower, so your feet skim the ground, or put a chair or bench in front of you so you can stop the swinging. Most effective: pullups without a swing (otherwise you're likely using all sorts of other muscles.) Lat pull downs work the muscles so differently from (and far less efficiently than) pullups and chinups that you'd be better served going to a gravitron if you must take a break from pullups. Good luck!!

Hey people, thanks -- Jman, I'll take you up on the MSR Denalis for $75.

Yeah yeah I know. Long story short, I set my snowshoes and ice axe by the side of the latrine when we returned from the summit, and then in my haste to see how our dog was doing (raw paws, I was worried about her) completely spaced picking them up again and raced to the truck. It wasn't until we got home and sorted gear that I realized they were still at the trailhead. I posted on this board following the incident to see if anyone had retrieved them, and got one reply saying they were up there the same weekend and heard someone trying to return them to the owner -- but alas, wasn't able to connect with them. Axe was replaced immediately, but I was hoping to get a comparable replacement pair of snowshoes for under $85... Any takers? OR anyone now on this board, reading these, who found a pair at MSH around May 9 2001???

Anyone have an extra (used, good condition) pair? I'd like to replace the MSR's that I lost up on Mt. St. Helens back in May of this year, now that it's time to get back into snow play. Serious offers only please reply to court@bodyresults.com. They don't have to be MSR's, though I liked mine.

Ted's suggestion is a good one; the other thing you might try as an interim solution is adjusting the boot laces differently from the ascent -- definitely try to pad (using moleskin and perhaps even some duct tape to keep the whole padding mass in place and prevent blisters) and on the descent, tighten the laces to prevent your foot from moving around in the boots. DC or Emmons for this attempt? Stay clear of glacier melting!! Good luck. ------------------ Courtenay Schurman, CSCS

Just to add to Eddie's reply: since fat is low-impedance and muscle and water are high impedance, the scale determines what percentage of your body mass is fat versus muscle. BIA (bioelectrical impedance analysis) seems to be one of the more accurate and certainly inexpensive measurements of body fat available, though if you have someone thoroughly trained in assessing body fat by taking skinfold caliper measurements, or if you can find someplace to do densitometry (underwater weighing, rather unpleasant), these can be more reliable. If you compare all sets of numbers there will probably be some disparity. Also, for any women who might happen to be lurking out there, remember that women tend to retain more water at certain times in their cycle, and the Tanita scale (in general) tends to overestimate bodyfat by about 7% (based on personal observation, disparities noted between Tanita scale measurements and clients' skinfold caliper measurements at various times throughout the month). That having been said, it is still a pretty good way to assess RELATIVE changes over several months, as Eddie points out. Other ways to assess progress, of course, include how you feel in your clothes (body measurements), overall energy levels, performance...

Something else that works well for general forearm and finger strength as well as endurance: the Farmer's walk with various thicknesses of handles -- regular dumbbells, thick-grip dumbbells, barbells, buckets with different loads. Measure off 75' and carry the weight to the end, set it down and rest, repeat. Increase as your grip gets stronger. But with everything else, don't overdo it.

Carbs and protein, little fat. Skip the supplements and try as much as possible to get the energy you need from food sources. The one exception I'd make to that is at altitude -- some people can't stomach solid food -- then a drink product (Gatorade or Cytomax) or Gu (or other similar non-solids) can give you quick energy and packages are very light (good for running, alpine-style fast-and-light climbing, hiking etc.)