Courtenay

Excellent point Llama raises -- and another along the same lines is looking at what might be different THIS hike compared to others -- it may be a case of 1) different footwear, 2) forgetting trekking poles (if you usually use them), 3) getting a pebble in your shoe that alters your stride (I'm serious on this one!!) or 4) your pack riding uncomfortably -- the latter two cases can cause you to unconsciously use different muscles to the tune of unusual soreness and pain, but which (if you can determine what was different) goes away the very next climb. So good point: find out what's CAUSING the pain -- whether outside sources, muscle imbalance, tightness (that stretching might help) or nutrition (hydration, anti-oxidants and adequate protein for repair.)

Excellent point Llama raises -- and another along the same lines is looking at what might be different THIS hike compared to others -- it may be a case of 1) different footwear, 2) forgetting trekking poles (if you usually use them), 3) getting a pebble in your shoe that alters your stried (I'm serious on this one!!) or 4) your pack riding uncomfortably -- the latter two cases can cause you to unconsciously use different muscles to the tune of unusual soreness and pain, but which (if you can determine what was different) goes away the very next climb. So good point: find out what's CAUSING the pain -- whether outside sources, muscle imbalance, tightness (that stretching might help) or nutrition (hydration, anti-oxidants and adequate protein for repair.)

Jon asked: << Is there a difference between doing lunges with barbels to your side versus having a weighted bar on your shoulders? I've done both and and the later seems harder. >> I assume you are referring to dumbbells (the short ones) hanging down straight-arm at your waist; barbell (the long one) on shoulders will feel more challenging because of 1) the length (more torque to balance through the core); 2) the change in center of gravity (higher up and more mass farther from the body); and 3) the bar will feel more "fixed", the dumbbells more "mobile," allowing you to move more comfortably when using dumbbells. Both work the muscles approximately the same way, but you'll probably use different total weight (i.e. 90# on the shoulders won't feel the same as using 2x45# dumbbells.) << Also I'm wondering about the two different common leg curl machines, the sitting versus the laying on your stomach ones. It seems with the sitting ones that you aren't getting a full range of motion. >> You're correct, lying down will allow more range of motion; just be sure to keep hips down on the pads (proper form) in order to resist hyperextending the lower back and causing (perhaps) discomfort.

Yup, squats and their infinite variations, IF DONE PROPERLY, and hamstring exercises like stiff-legged deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts, leg curls (this is the one nearly everyone is already familiar with; for imbalances, try doing these as 1-leg curls and make sure the legs are of even or comparable strength), glute ham raises, good mornings, back extensions, etc. etc. etc.

Sure, Jon, they do -- BUT for someone who has knee issues, the impact of plyometric type exercises (both TRUE plyos, and the more popular skips, hops and jumps like you see in something like a ski conditioning class) may exacerbate the condition without appropriate strengthening ahead of time. I'd suggest any time you're working on a weakened area, start with light weight, work more on endurance (start with sets of 10 reps and build to 20) then increase the weight as form stays stellar and strength increases.

I would agree that biking is a good cross-training alternative to running, yes, and certainly is a great non-impact option while strengthening the hips, hams and quads, but my quibble here is that cycling is NOT a "strength" exercise -- it's great for building cardiovascular endurance. However, running and biking are BOTH quad builders, so to help with any imbalances, you need to include exercises that are NOT just quad builders. Make sense?

Yeah, that's the ticket! You guys crack me up. Thought this was a climbing board? Have they changed it to biking/cyclocross/cycling/mountain biking/velospectacular/road racing on me without me knowing it?

And if you can't stand biking, don't have a bike, don't have access to a friend's or family menber's bike, or if it hurts to bike, then try the other suggestions here. C'mon guys, biking AIN'T the solution to all knee ailments! some maybe, but not ALL!

Steve, Check out the link here to do a simple test: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2kneetest.asp Step downs, step ups, squats (with proper form!!), deadlifts, lunges, dips and the like are all great options; free weight-type exercises or body weight resistance are preferable for climbers and skiers than most machines, as you want strength that will be helpful in your sports, not just on a machine that supports your weight and guides you in one track only. In my experience with numerous climbing clients, leg extensions are perhaps the LEAST preferred way to strengthen the quads, and a version of the squat the MOST preferred (that may be partial range, light weight, wide stance, or maybe even up against a wall as in a skier squat). Here are some more ideas on the Body Results pages for knee issues, trekking poles, and exercises: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2patellofemoral.asp http://www.bodyresults.com/E2kneeinjuries.asp http://www.bodyresults.com/E2trekkingpoles.asp http://www.bodyresults.com/S2postseason1.asp This last link takes you to a "post-season" workout that was designed to help climbers balance out the whole lower body -- it could be that your hamstrings, glutes or inner quads (the vastus medialis obliquus, or VMO) are weak, and post-season is the time to strengthen them. Good luck.

And another thing you can do barring PT or buying gadgets (which I love to use in our training studio, but hate suggesting to clients as Wobble Boards and Sit Fit discs are actually quite pricey) is to find several rocks of different sizes, dimensions and shapes (esp. if you have a yard) and travel across them; better yet, go to a boulder field or sandy beach; see this link on ankle stability: http://www.bodyresults.com/s2calves.asp

Yes, step-ups, lunges and one-leg squats are good; so are full range of motion squats (if you can do them with proper form). You might also try Step-downs if you think your VMO is the culprit (i.e. on descents) (the VMO is the inner quad muscle, usually somewhat weaker than outer quads for most people) See links here for pictures: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2kneetest.asp

Same movement. Same muscles. Though I'd hazard a guess that you probably won't be able to use as much weight on the stability ball as you would on some of the other exercises.

Actually, both the cable and free weight options will in general be better choices than something like a torso-supported Universal, Nautilus, or other type machine row with fixed metal supports. The key is to make the exercise use as much of the musculature as possible, in a movement pattern similar to what you may need it for in :real life: --heck, even getting up under a low pullup bar or a bar positioned low (i.e. hip level) in a squat rack will allow you to do what I call a "horizontal pullup" for the rhomboids, with feet on the floor or a bench for added difficulty. And I often use the "crack the egg" analogy for anyone having a difficult time getting the rhomboids to fire. Seems a lot of people are great at using arms and lats, but don't quite have the feel for the mid-back muscles firing...

You can do bent over rows with a barbell OR dumbbells (1-arm OR 2-arm); bent rows with a barbell will also require lower back strength to hold the position still; 1-arm rows you can do with a hand and knee on a bench; play around with next-to-the-side 1-arm rows, and also 90 degree (1/2 "T") rows out away from the body to really target the rhomboids.

Yes, seated rows with arms out at a right angle (i.e. like a "T" to your torso) and torso perpendicular to the floor. You can also target the specific muscles by doing a simple exercise at home that does not require any gear, called the wall reverse pushup (or "corner pushup") at our web site: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2cornerpushups.asp You can also do seated rope rows, arms high, as pictured at http://www.bodyresults.com/S2Climb10e.asp in the corner pushup section as a diagnostic test. [ 10-05-2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Courtenay ]

Absolutely correctamundo, Texplorer sans CSCS, working finger extensors (vs. flexors), rhomboids (horizontal pulling vs. lats=vertical pulling) and triceps (vs. biceps) in the upper body is quite important at all times, not just off-season, to help keep muscles in balance and help ward off overuse injuries. It's also a good time to include some rotator cuff exercises or overhead presses to help preserve the integrity of the shoulders. Core strength (abs, obliques and lower back) can also be developed effectively off-season. And sorry if the "CSCS" offends, it's part of my automatic sig on this board.

Gary, you can buy (relatively inexpensively) a belt specifically designed for that -- biners and sturdy straps -- so you can hang weight from your hips rather than on your shoulders (as in the case of the backpack) OR without any further investment, use something like ropes (soft, bulky and heavy) that won't pop out of the pack.

Thanks, Peter. I found the 616161 scheme worked quite well for me, see how it works for you and report back (you can use it for pullups, bench press, squats, whatever.) 2x/week at the climbing gym is plenty -- remember, because there's no approach, setting up anchors, etc. like in alpine climbing, you run the risk of climbing too MUCH at the gym since it takes all of a minute to switch belayers and go again. I've seen many an injury to tendons from people who dive into 3-4x/week indoors without considering the differences. And 2x20 minutes of intense interval cardio (you can put one of those with a climbing day) along with the rest of your weekend outings should suffice--again depending on your body's weaknesses and your goals.

MITLlama, I'd say that depends on WHY you do your cardio -- if you feel great when you're out in the mountains, then your current routine is probably perfect. If you do it to help with weight reduction, that's something else. If you feel you need to increase your speed, then maybe another targeted cardio workout to work towards that goal (interval training, such as running up hills) would help. If you feel fine with a light pack but anything over 30 makes you slow way down, then a hill/stairclimb workout with "over-weight" (more than you'd carry in the mountains) might help. All depends on your goals and your satisfaction with where you are. Get it?

Peter, this is such an excellent topic. And the answer depends entirely on one's individual short- and long-term goals and adventures of choice. For more on this, check out two articles on our Body Results websites related to figuring out the different fitness characteristics that go into the climbing sub-categories (http://www.bodyresults.com/E3FitnessPolygon.asp) as well as snow-sports like skiing and boarding(http://www.bodyresults.com/S2SnowPolygon.asp). Then, look at your weaknesses (we have an article just out on our latest free on-line newsletter: off-season training and refining your program: (http://www.bodyresults.com/E2OffSeasonTraining.asp) that can help as well. As to specifics, the biggest mistake I see is people forgetting about strength training -- they build until June, go out and climb all summer, then seem to go into hibernation until January (or October, until ski season starts) and have to build all over again from scratch. If instead they had a maintenance/build program from October to January, they'd find that each and every year they get stronger, faster, and more adept at their chosen sport. Hope that all helps.

Since the "plantar fasciitis" thread didn't go where I'd hoped, this is a re-naming; do you have any favorite on-line resources for injury treatment or prevention that you'd like to share with readers? If so, add them in this thread.

Anyone tried the 3-pitch ice climb on Eldorado's NE Face in the last few weeks? We read the 2000 trip report on that route (an October 7-8 weekend, so similar conditions to right now, I suspect) on Cascade Climbers.com; anyone else have any beta to share?

Uh, WHY? And who organized this workout? Sounds like someone who's already participated in a few other 24-hour stints. Now an ultra-distance event, or car-to-car climb I can understand, but I'm with nervedoc on this one, as the above two examples are dependent on your own efforts, without compounding things by adding 1) other people, and 2) lots of contact. Doesn't sound like such a good idea to me... But again, WHY?

Hi all, Freeclimb9 and Terrible Ted are right on the money with doing what you can with the rest of your body. You don't want to have the core, legs and mucles in the other arm atrophy while waiting for the affected limb to heal. If you can find a qualified PT who does your sport or activity and who can outline a recovery and activity program for you for the next 1-3 months, do so; that will keep you on track and prevent you from going stir-crazy. When I had arthroscopic knee surgery, I was back on a bike doing (at reduced levels) 1-leg pedalling to keep the other limb strong and help the cardio system--it helped speed me back to activity much more quickly; when I broke a bone in my right foot, I was back on the elliptical cross-trainer 3 days later in my walking boot, and climbed Kilimanjaro 6 weeks later with the help of my aggressive self-PT; same with arm in a cast 15 years ago (from a bike accident) working the other arm to keep the upper body strong. There ARE things you can do, though I'd strongly recommend not getting on a climbing wall until you are healed, as you'll be worse off if you slip and try catching yourself with the affected limb. Be safe, but stay active. Good luck.

Thanks, Forrest_m-- and yes, we DO want to attempt the N. Face/ice climb, in conjunction with Dome, up the Chickamin Glacier, rather than the walk-up route. We'll be sure to take several pickets as well as ice screws given that we don't have a current trip report to go on. I'll check the Dome/Gunsight reports. Thanks!