Courtenay

This post stems off the shoulder dislocation/relocation post. This stuff is fascinating to me; anyone else have stories of wilderness medicine training put into good use? I've always wondered if anyone I know has ever encountered (for example) a sucking chest wound. Always a favorite among MOFA students, but I think if it were to actually happen in the wilderness it would be quite unnerving for all involved. Anyone else have recommendations for the WFR courses? Is there any training more advanced than MOFA but not quite at the EMT level that climbers would benefit from having?

Steve wrote: << Was I too fast to quit? Was it reasonable to expect improvement within 6 weeks? >> It depends; were you following the frequency recommended by the PT? In other words, if the recommendation was "daily 3 times" were you able to do it as often as suggested? And what sorts of things were you doing, mainly stretching, manual therapy, or did you get into some strength training as well for legs and hips? << My girlfriend (who is a surgeon) recommended that I NOT do anything like chiropractic treatment, but I didn't know what else to try. What about accupuncture? >> Each and every "alternative" means has an application that will work for some people. I wouldn't necessarily knock chiropractic care universally. It's done good things for me, but I was careful about who I chose to see. As with the PT, if something doesn't work, you go on to the next thing. I'd suggest perhaps trying a good massage therapist (as another option that's already been suggested) or maybe even a good "yoga for climbers" type of class. What is your current stretch routine? << I'm clueless. Maybe Courtenay or another knowledgeable person has some experience with this or advice? >> Is the numbness and tingling constant, or just during certain activities -- i.e. are you okay sitting and not okay standing, and vice versa? Does hiking aggravate it, is biking okay? As you can see, suggesting things to try gets pretty tricky on-line but I hope this gives you a little more to think about. Again, I'd be happy to talk with you more off-line if you'd like. Court@bodyresults.com

Another simple home remedy for trigger point flare-ups and mild aches and pains (from neck to shoulder to mid-back and on down) is to take something as simple as a tennis ball and self-massage right on the affected area. I know this works really well on hard-to-reach areas such as mid-back near the scapula (shoulder blades.) Alternating ice and heat (ice packs with hot tubs, hot showers; Icy Hot, etc. can also help) sometimes can help, though like the other suggestions here, massage therapy, stretching, PT, sports med exercises, properly designed exercise programs -- all can help. Good luck and let us know if we can brainstorm further.

I definitely agree with Erik; make sure if you're going to do this that you've had the appropriate instruction and have either seen it done several times, or have practice doing it with supervision. Those people who commonly have this happen may be able to guide you through what they need, but I know from the description alone I'd be concerned about having to do it myself. Neat trick, though, wish they included stuff like that in today's MOFA courses...

Matt has a good point. A PT or exercise specialist familiar with your activity can help design a program to keep you doing what you love to do while trying to reduce any problems you might be experiencing. If you like, I'd be happy to talk with you off-line as well, as that's something I do with my climbing clients. You can e-mail me privately at court@bodyresults.com

FYI: New 66-minute video available offering a comprehensive 6-month training program for novice to intermediate level climbers around the country interested in getting in top physical condition for a climb of Rainier or other comparable high peak. It includes suggestions for aerobic, anaerobic, strength, flexibility, and climbing-specific training, as well as adequate rest and recovery. Video also includes information on how to download the 6-month program on-line. Available through Body Results at http://www.bodyresults.com [ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Courtenay ]

This sounds a little more to me like a slightly pinched nerve (the recurring "zings") that could be from a tight iliotibial band, glute, or other hip muscles -- did you try anything like stretching, and what are your primary exercises for getting prepared for climbing (are you a runner, trail runner, or is your main activity of choice climb, climb, climb?) While it could be frostnip, it doesn't sound quite right. Fill us in on the above and remember that on-line advice can never take the place of a visit to the doctor. Even calling MED-INFO if you're a resident of King County could provide some useful advice. [ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Courtenay ]

Yeah, actually now that I think more on that, if you're going to swing hands around, make sure it's NOT water or you'll ruin your carpeting!! Again, rice, pasta, or something that won't slosh as readily would be better.

...and along the same lines as this thread, good mornings will do absolutely NOTHING for grip, as the bar is resting behind your body. Not for novices. If you want to do a similar move and get the same benefits of back strengthening and grip, stiff-leg (NOT straight-leg; keep slight bend in knees) or regular deadlifts (bending knees, lifting from floor) are awesome. Just make sure you have someone show you proper form who knows what they're doing and what your body needs.

Good mornings are a strength exercise for lower back and hamstrings, similar to the stiff-leg deadlift but with barbell behind the neck rather than a barbell in hands held at thighs. Key is to hinge forward at the hips, keeping back flat for arched-back good mornings, or rounded for rounded-back good mornings. You can also do them seated or with a staggered (split) stance. They get their namesake from the Orient tradition of bending forward at the hips as in a bow while saying "good morning" (or whatever it would be in their native tongue.

Haireball has some great suggestions -- deadlifts and good mornings both for grip AND back/leg muscles, and dumbbell step ups. Someone else also has suggested (back to the ice thread) framing houses, chopping wood, carrying awkward objects so the hands get used to all sorts of dimensions -- I even like to carry as many bags of groceries as I can possibly stack in my fingers (plastic bags) and tote them home -- forearms, shoulders/traps, fingers, low back and legs all at once. Yeah, I know, I probably look really foolish, but any way you can get in real life strength training as opposed to having to set a time to get to the gym is a plus for most people!!

<< No really, its cool cause you can also stretch it out with your fingers. That way you work the opposing muscles (whatever the techy term is...Courtney???) >> That's what it's called -- working opposing muscles (agonists and antagonists) -- in gripping and climbing, finger flexors get all the work; training the extensors against a rubber band, bucket of rice, or silly putty/dough type training will help keep finger and forearm tendons healthy and strong. For more on finger training visit a few of the Body Results pages:http://www.bodyresults.com/E2fingerextensor.htm http://www.bodyresults.com/E2fingertraining.htm and http://www.bodyresults.com/E2fingertendons.htm

Jblakley wrote: << A pullup is done with the palms facing away from you while on the bar. A chin up is done with palms facing towards you. I would say chin ups are a bit easier i.e. I can do more of those. >> Correct. Or what's known as pronated grip (palms facing away, as in pullups) and supinated grip (palms face toward you, as in chinups). The easiest grip, by far (i.e. most direct line of pull for the biceps) is the neutral (palms parallel) grip, though for direct application to climbing, you want to use about a shoulder width pronated (forward-facing) grip. Chins aren't QUITE as advantageous for climbing, but get you to the point where you can do more pullups.

NolanR wrote: << You go til you have to drop out, last man (or woman) standing is the winner. I used to rip off thirty or forty or fifty at the end just to maintain my dominance. Come on Courtenay, I'm trying really hard to impress you here. >> Why? No really, if you can do 50 wide grip pullups from full arm extension(i.e. not halfsies) at tempo of 2 seconds up and 2 down without a lot of momentum swinging, then I'm impressed. I like the card idea -- may try that with some of my clients!!

My take on Superslow? Here ya go: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2SuperSlow.htm Summary: it's an okay training variation if used properly, but for anyone who wants power (i.e. most athletes), it's not the way to train regularly; furthermore, most people writing about Superslow training (Wayne Westcott and others) advocate doing this on machines, which hopefully most climbers now realize from all my previous posts is NOT how climbers should be training. Try a superslow pullup, or superslow lunge/squat, rather than superslow leg press or lat pulls -- but as always vary what you're doing so you get as much from your training as possible.

Agreed, Nolanr -- the jerky, uncontrolled movements you see in the gym are NOT a good idea; here we were starting to address intentional speed work to prepare for dynos -- i.e. if you are going to want to move really quickly through an overhung section and all you have trained to do are super slow pullups, you won't have built the explosive power needed to dive up to the next hold; training chins or pullups so you lower under control but blast your way up over the bar as hard as you can pull (as fast as possible) will give your lats, fingers, muscles and tendons the training necessary to do dynos without strain. Just a thought. BUT this does NOT mean I'm suggesting that you do all your biceps curls with too much weight and engage every single lower back muscle as you whip the bar to your shoulders. Leave that to those who don't know any better.

Agreed, Marcus -- and everyone: IF THERE IS PAIN beyond the usual and typical muscle soreness (or at the time, lactic acid buildup) then back off and try something else. Case in point, if with a pronated (palms facing forward) grip on pullups you feel pain in the shoulders, but you are okay on supinated (palms facing chest) chin ups, then by all means do the chins rather than pullups until you can figure out what's going on with your shoulders. I do forward wide pullups almost exclusively because the chins at full hang do something painful to my shoulders; others have the opposite experience. Find what works best for you and helps you make the most progress, and stick with the tried and true.

Ah, grip training. Farmer's walk is a great one -- here is a link to some other ideas on our Body Results web site: http://www.bodyresults.com/S2preseason3.htm

<<4-8 reps is all good if you want to be an ox. You'll be able to carry a 100 pound pack but your going to lack endurance and muscle strength in proportion to your body weight>> Again, this is A PHASE of a well-rounded periodized program, not the main one by any means for climbers, but it can be a very important one for some people to reach their goals. You as a trainer will be able to recognize that!! How ELSE would someone be able to train into endurance chins and pullups without at some point doing 4-8 reps, no??

<<Pushups, Pull ups, Chin ups, Sit ups, Dips + Running (with anerobic hill traning) will get you in better shape than any weight training program in my opinion>> But, that IS a "weight training program" -- using your own body weight along with the occasional weighted chins and pullups, weight on your back for pushups, back pack for squats and dips, pack for hill work--just not the "typical" press-a-weight program as gym-heads would think of it. Anything against resistance will add strength.

Negatives: lowering phase (i.e. chin over bar, then slowly lower your weight. If it involves hopping up to get there, so be it.) Nope, weak arm on the bar. Try it. You're taking the strong arm out of the equation somewhat by moving it down the towel where it can't contribute as much, training the weakest link first. I know, it's hard...

Hey all, A good point was raised recently off-line about the amount of time it takes to do a pullup and how you can compare effort between one person's 1/2 chins done at high speed, with narrow grip, and another's wide grip, full range of motion pullup done slowly. Think about it. If we define a "repetition" as a single movement of an exercise through the full range of motion, taking 2 seconds on the lifting portion and 3 seconds on the lowering portion, then a set of 12 repetitions will take an individual a full minute to complete. That's a lot more "time under tension" than the reps done at 1 second up, 1 second down, for 15 (only 30 seconds to complete the set, or half the time under tension.) Take into consideration another point: grip spacing -- keep in mind that for climbing, the palms-forward pullup grip most closely resembles what you'd use for climbing; however, most people are strongest doing chins (palms reversed, or palms-toward-chest), and weakest with hands spaced wide apart. When comparing pullups, you need to make sure you're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Who here does pullups from a dead hang? (hopefully EVERYONE, though I know that's not the case!)

That WOULD be the 240# guy...

HA HA HA HA HAAAA!! I WISH I could bench 400! Just FYI, I'm a female. Don't know a lot of climbers who can bench 400. Don't know ANY female climbers who can bench 400. Now really, what do you HONESTLY want to know?

Peter asked: <<Is there an upper range of weight you'd recommend? Do standing raises have much risk of back injury? >> Depends on the individual, the exercise, and personal history of strength training -- someone weighing 105 pounds and female, fairly new to lifting will have a very different upper level from some guy who's 180 pounds who has been climbing for years and who also lifts regularly. I'd say take a look at the weight you use on your climbs; you'd want to have good endurance with your body weight plus that weight. For "over-weight" training (meaning heavier than you'd carry, to get you into the 4-8 reps range) it will be quite substantial. If you're concerned about injury to spine (low risk with something like this) try belted calf raises with a Nautilus machine or weight belt you can strap around your mid section rather than loading a bar high on your neck and shoulders. Hope this helps.