Courtenay

Hey thanks, Terry -- I notice that site has a lot of solid information for triathletes (i.e. injuries, physiology, etc. related to swimming, biking and running) but not specifically to climbing (i.e. upper body) issues. Good starting point. Any others have good climbing-related strain (as well as general) favorites?

Interesting idea raised recently in another thread about finding a doctor. Maybe we can get some good resources collected here -- BE EARNEST, NO SPRAYING -- do you know of good on-line resources to share with CC.com readers for various health conditions, barring a visit to a doctor (if for whatever reason that doesn't work well right now)? For starters, if you're looking for information on plantar fasciitis, take a look at one of the articles recently added to Body Results: www.bodyresults.com/E2plantarf.asp

Hey all, Anyone have beta on the 4 pitches of ice on the N. Face of Sinister? Planning on a combo Dome/Sinister climb and interested in conditions.

Some suggestions: call MED-INFO if you're anywhere near the Pacific Northwest Hospital / N. Seattle area, and specify what you're looking for -- they'll refer you to the appropriate physician. Word of mouth from trusted friends is also a good way.

What sort of doc are you looking for, one who specializes in sports medicine, a family practitioner, internist, someone who can help with an injury........

Aidan, it could be several things: 1) if you're taking any supplemental creatine, try it without and it's likely the cramping will go away; 2) it could be that you got dehydrated; instead of just drinking water (I didn't see any mention of what your food/beverage solution was), try a Gatorade or Powerade (or other juice) solution diluted with water to replenish the electrolytes, as well as the water; 3) strength training can help quite a bit; what does your strength program consist of right now? 4) stretching can help immensely as soon as you start to cramp up, but better to deal with the cause than just the symptoms. Hope that helps.

You're right, Peter, seated calf raises actually work a different part of the calf (the soleus) than straight-leg calf raises (which primarily work the gastrocnemius). To save your shoulders and work the same part of the calf, try something like leg press calf raises -- your legs are still straight, as in the standing calf raises, but the weight no longer is on the shoulders as in a standing leg press where you have to have a yoke or (as in the Nautilus machine) harness on your shoulders. Another option is to try 1-leg calf raises (with less weight) to challenge balance at the same time as strength. Good luck. Courtenay

And don't forget that "dead" shoes are great to use for lifting -- try to use old sneakers when lifting weights (i.e. doing squats, dips, lunges, Oly lifts or deadlifts) so you can preserve the cushion in your running shoes a bit longer.

That 3:2 ratio thing is a bit of a myth... But what might be useful instead is testing right leg to left -- if one leg feels weaker than the other, it could mean that the leg with the ITB problem is tighter/stronger (i.e. doing more of the work) so that strengthening the other leg and stretching the one that's tight could help. You might also want to look up in the glutes/hip region; Sayjay's recommendation actually strengthens the VMO, inner quad muscle known as the Vastus Medialis Obliquus, which in many climbers and hikers is usually a little weaker than the "outer quads" and could take some of the pressure off the ITB if you balance out the legs. Here's a stretch I like to have people with tight ITB/glutes do: sit on your butt on the floor, and bend your right knee a bit, right foot flat on the floor, and place left ankle across the right knee. Lean back on your hands and slide the right foot closer to you, then straighten your arms (on the floor behind you, pushing chest toward the left ankle/right knee) until you feel a good stretch in the hip. Now the clincher: flex the toes of the right foot (one on the floor) and deepen the stretch even further. Great glutes/ITB stretch, but if you're tight in the glutes, really ease into this -- you'll see good progress with time. We have included this stretch among other climbing stretches on our "Train to Climb Mt. Rainier" video (for more info visit www.bodyresults.com.)

Another secret about times: I've found over the years that gyms usually have more people on Mondays and Wednesdays, fewer Tuesdays/Thursdays, and generally even fewer on Fridays. IN GENERAL. On the other hand, for climbing gyms, it seems quite different -- I know Seattle VW tends to have the most people Tuesday and Thursday evenings, probably so that those going out on weekends can get adequate rest for elbows and fingers and still get in enough climbing during the week.

Great topic. In my experience with a wide range of clients of various ages, G/C seems to work best if you still have cartilage left. Those clients who have had the cartilage completely removed usually don't experience any improvement -- just arthritic symptoms (in which case, pain reliever works better). However, those who have cartilage remaining and take it, swear by it. I've experimented with it myself to see if there are any noticeable side effects and couldn't detect any. It's certainly worth trying; but as mneagle points out, losing weight (so there's less of you pounding on the joints) and properly conditioning before hitting the trails (including appropriate stretching, strengthening, and cardio training) can do quite a bit to help lessen pain and impact around the joints. A sound diet can also be immensely helpful. But if you're already doing all of the above and STILL have pain, it may be worth trying.

Nolanr wrote: I bet you've seen plenty of the type yourself. I maintain that lifters are a subculture that is every bit as weird and misunderstood by the population in general as climbers. heh heh, yes, you are right about that. And even within the "lifting" world, the difference between bodybuilders, Olympic lifters, strongmen/strongwomen competitors, and powerlifters is quite significant. Alpine climbers (with miles and miles traveled, sometimes with quite heavy packs) and sport climbers (who crag in one area for hours with little more than pro or quickdraws strapped to their harnesses) are as much on opposite ends of the climbing spectrum as bb'ers and PLers. That's what makes both realms so fascinating...

Nolanr wrote: I would guess best time for workouts has a high degree of individual variation. Would you agree w/ that Courtenay? I would indeed. And it's important to realize what your natural -- for lack of a better term -- biorhythms tell you is best for YOU. If you absolutely can't stand doing cardio first thing in the morning, it's likely you won't stick to that plan for very long. I find for myself if I can lift somewhere between 2-4 p.m. and do cardio a little earlier in the day (I'm a morning person, actually) then I'm doing well. If I were to leave lifting until after about 6 p.m. it's likely I'd end up skipping it, but for some, that's the best and strongest time of the day. One other thought: if training for an event such as a marathon that will be in the mornings, and you are more of an evening person, it is a good idea to train (close to the event) at about the same time you'd race/climb/compete, so that the body is at least somewhat used to it. Case in point the god-awful early alpine starts; you may find as the season goes on and you do more of them that you simply adapt to them, no?

Nolan posted on BowFlex the following:<Except my body doesn't really function at that time. I used to try working out before 10 a.m. or so sometimes in the college days, never liked it, never got good workouts. I can do alpine starts for climbing, not lifting. > I thought this would make a good topic since so many of us DO get early starts to get a jump on the crowds, to take advantage of conditions on glacier climbs before the sun melts the top layer and adds to avalanche danger, and to use as much daylight as possible. But what do you all naturally prefer (in terms of times of the day) for workouts, from cardio to stretching to strength? Some studies show that the body actually does better with strength training after you've been awake for about 4 hours. Cardio, on the other hand, can be done upon waking, mid-day, late -- whenever you can consistently fit it in. Then that might raise the question of the "overnight fast" and should you eat before a workout, how close to it, how much, etc. What have you all experienced? Any takers on a new thread?

Hi Nolan, Regarding soreness, all it really means is that you did a little damage to the muscle tissue and it's got to repair itself so that it's stronger next time you do the same workout. With regularity, workouts really shouldn't make you sore all the time. Some people really "like" to feel a little soreness as it tends to remind them of the muscles they worked, but it's certainly okay NOT to be sore. And most new exercisers prefer NOT to be sore! It's a rare workout that can actually cause me to be sore any more (I've been lifting for half my life) though if there's a certain muscle group I neglect, I can generally tell which one it is when I get back to training it. Hope that helps.

Well then, you've answered your own question. The best piece of equipment (or best gym) is ... THE ONE YOU'LL USE CONSISTENTLY. You can do a heck of a lot just using your own body weight as resistance (squats, lunges, pullups, dips, pushups) but even in these examples, you'd have to get a good chinning bar. If you have it, and you'll use it, go for it.

Hey Bronc, good to hear you've resolved the soreness issue. Happy training.

Ah I can see the humorous ones are out in full force again... In all seriousness, here are MY "pro's and con's" as originally intended (I think) by the question. PRO's: yes, agreed, they are better than nothing. It takes little space, so for a home gym that may be a good option.Options available for full body exercises (uh, that means you can work whatever body parts or muscle groups you'd like.)Great equipment on board a ship, as no weights will be rolling around in a storm. I'm serious with this one, I was out at sea for 3 weeks and you could still work out even with rough waters!Reasonably priced, though for climbers, I'd say get a good bench, some adjustable dumbbells (or several pairs at the appropriate weights) and a pullup bar. Con's: the tension is very little at the top, very great at the bottom -- compare that with a pullup using your body weight as one resistance (same weight, top and bottom) and you'll see what a drawback that can be. Takes some getting use to in order to adjust for various exercises. You could do worse, but you could do a lot better. Hope that helps.

Jon wrote: "Then you agree with me ... later learned head looking forward by professional strength and conditioning coaches. We broke down every movement and I had to be signed off on my form after my last set...What I learned from those people is invaluable. That said I wouldn't hesitate to pay for a professional trainer to analyze my form." I'd agree that looking to the ceiling is not the way to teach the lift, nor is looking at the floor. Both encourage bad form habits from the start. Key is to get the butt low, and start with a tight grip and tight body to maximize the pull (no jerking!) and drive with the legs, keeping arms straight and weight directly below the shoulders. Yes, form is tricky but crucial to any of the more technical lifts, especially those involving potentially a lot of weight.

Bronco, I'd say perhaps the sumo deadlift with small plates is more range of motion than you're used to, hence the soreness. You can either 1) lighten the weight, 2) do partial range deadlifts to the knees or shins to not go as far down, or 3) do more than 1 set and put at least 3 days of rest between. Whenever you do an exercise that is new, you can expect some soreness, but if the soreness doesn't go away, or if it's something more severe than "soreness" then try something else and see if it clears up, then resume slowly.

DCramer asked: << I would also use more reps and less weight for the lateral raise. Additionally I would add forearm pronation and supination excercises. The goal is to have a small (4-5) core group of excercises (eg Bench, Lat Pull, Dips, Squats) augmented by a few other supporting excercises. The core group excercises all have a power orientation. Am I out to lunch Court? >> Not at all, since lateral raises involve weight far out from the body, I tend to agree with :more reps and light weight: on that one. Ditto pronation and supination, reverse curls vs. regular wrist curls. Key exercises for climbers should be PULLUPS, SQUATS or DEADLIFTS (or one of the variations), some PUSHING exercise (for muscle balance in triceps and chest--such as dips or pushups or bench press) and ROW (for back muscle balance in the horizontal plane). Agreed agreed.

<< What do you think of the R&I program, Dips and Squat vs. deadlifts?>> Again, I haven't read the program, but there are pro's and con's to all movements. To make it short and sweet: SQUATS: probably one of the trickiest moves to learn properly per body type but an awesome exercise for core, lower back, quads or hams (depending on stance), glutes (again, recruitment depends on stance) and body power. The "myth" most people have heard uninformed lifters and even some doctors perpetuate is that squats are :bad for the knees: or :hard on the back.: ONLY IF DONE IMPROPERLY. We squat every day when sitting in a chair or on the toilet, so it's a very natural movement. SOME people with shoulder issues may have difficulty holding the bar behind the neck comfortably, hence tools like the manta ray, safety bar, cambered bar or doing dumbbell, pack or front squats are all different squatting options that can be effective. DEADLIFTS: Excellent exercise for the muscles listed above, ALSO for the GRIP, fingers, forearms -- again, great for climbers. DIPS: Depends on the climber. Great for manteling, but some climbers have shoulder conditions (myself included) that get aggravated by doing dips. If they work for you, do them. Pushups can do just as much good and I haven't heard here whether they were included in the article.

Bronco asked:<<Why are my upper hamstrings and lower gluts sore after performing deadlift exercise? >> I'd also want to know, besides frequency, weight used, and other lifts performed, are you doing these as stiff-legged deadlifts (with 10-20 degree knee bend), conventional deadlifts (narrow stance) or sumo deadlifts (wide stance)? The glutes and hams are stressed more in SLDL's than in the other 2. You MAY also have a slight strain in the glute-ham attachment, IF the pain is recurring AND you're doing them as SLDL's with locked out knees (before I knew better, way back when, I did just that. Big no-no.)

I might add, in case anyone wonders where to find trainers who KNOW the lifts, that Doug and I both compete (in the off-season) in local, regional and state powerlifting competitions, in which the squat, deadlift and bench press are the three lifts completed. We're more than happy to help out anyone interested in learning more. The comment made by Jon about: "Contrary to the article I was taught not to squat, dead lift or power clean with your head back like they say in the article. People believe that putting your head back like that is better for your back. It’s not. It puts unnecessary stress on you neck and promotes over-curvature of the spine. By looking at the ceiling..." Ah, no. I train people to look straight forward, keeping neck in line with the spine (but NOT looking at the floor, as THAT encourages back rounding, the opposite extreme of back arching from looking at the ceiling.) Also partial movements, breaking down the lift into stages, is a good way to teach the lift to new lifters.

Okay, here's my $.02. I'm biased, as I love squats, deadlifts, pullups, cleans, overhead presses (call me sick) and the harder the exercise, it's very likely the more bang for your buck. Key is FORM so you don't injure yourself. Let's see if I can take all this and answer your questions. First, you have to determine your purpose -- WHY do the squats and deadlifts in the first place -- and which variant is the appropriate one for your body, your goals, etc. It may be that someone needs a front squat vs. a back squat in order to teach them how to stay more upright. Or perhaps someone needs to start by squatting onto a chair to learn how to keep the weight back in the heels rather than jutting knees forward of the toes (if they have knee issues.) For others, it may be that teaching deadlifts from the knees is the first step to teaching proper form. Deadlifts are an AWESOME full-body exercise, for sport or for "average participants" and have great carry-over or transferability to real-life movements (what some dub "functional", though that term is severely overused these days.) In other words, if you're picking up groceries, pulling on a Z-pulley set-up to retrieve a fallen climber, lifting a child, or hoisting your pack, you're basically doing a version of the deadlift. We use it every day. DONE PROPERLY, the gym lift is an excellent training tool for real life. HOWEVER, as people are pointing out above (I haven't read the latest article referred to) it's VERY difficult to learn form simply by word or still picture alone, or even by video (try learning the snatch, clean, or split jerk by video and you'll know what I mean!) If more Cascade Climbers readers are interested, my husband Doug and I are available for consultation in the Seattle-area or could even put on a training seminar showing form on some of the more difficult lifts such as these above. We just had a basic training seminar last week at the Mountaineers clubhouse and have had a few at Vertical World as well. If interested, feel free to contact us off-line at trainer@bodyresults.com.