jon

Allison the shovel you're using is getting bigger.

Right on Dave! I can't people are arguing about the "ethics" of this company. So what if they are using prison labor. It cost 40k a year to lock those fuckers up they better be doing some work instead of lifting weights and butt raping each other. OP is doing these people a service by giving them work. You think it's hard finding a job now, try finding one after being locked up for four years. How "ethical" is the company you work for? Do they set aside time for a group hug followed by going through the garbage and sorting stuff for recycling and the compost pile? Give me a freaken break. I feel bad for the people who lost their jobs when the company moved but it was a smart decision. Spokane is much cheap than the Bear Creek Redmond area where they used to be. I like OPs stuff and I'll continue to buy it.

YEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

We will be holding elections for Pub Club chairman at the O n T, we will wait until people are back from the Mounties and have had a chance to have a Guinni before nominations are made. After elections mattp will lead the group in building the foundation of the ROS (rules of spray) followed by a lecture titled "Zen in the Art of being Effortlessly Cool". The evening will end with an interpretive dance by the climber formally known as AlpineK.

Spraybonbon, I thought it was decided that it was going to be at Owl n Thistle? Guiness

quote: Originally posted by Dru: e is good, speed is bad. Yeah DRU, E is really good at putting holes is your melon. Don't believe me, go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov and click on the PubMed link (nothing to do with Pub Club) and do a literature search for "MDMA" or "Extacy puts freakin holes in your melon". Maybe that will change your mind about it.

Yeah Harborview gets some crazy crap. About six years I was brought in the ER with a pretty bad compound fracture (like there is a good one ). Anyways this guy was in there who had been shot, and the guy who shot him tried to force his way in there to finish him off. No shit.

I'd personally rather have people put some thought and restaint when they are going to post instead of myself, Tim, or any of the very few people who have volunteered to moderate step in/babysit. Having an atmosphere where people can speak their mind is great, and many comment that's why they like this board over others, but people too many times push the limit of what is really acceptable and shouldn't be surprised when their post disappears or they lose their posting rights. These people are talking advantage of the medium, would you seriously post some of that shit if everyone could see you and know who you are? Some claim it's their right to post whatever they want, but they're wrong, the way I see it is it's everybodies right to utilize the site and if there is material that people consider offending they have a right to say something about it. One person says most climbers are male, which may be true, so deal with it. Well most climbers are white as well, so should we just starting throwing around racial slurs like it's no big deal. I don't like having to spend my time moving and deleting threads, deleting posts, and dealing with users who are either out of control or upset with the level of the content. The reality as more users sign on and the number of posts increases, it becomes increasingly hard for the few moderators. What that means is either people need to think before they post or we need more people to stick their neck out and help moderate. It's pretty obvious what the answer to that is.

quote: Originally posted by texplorer: When there's a website called Canukclimbers.com you must mean canukclimbers.com.eh

The Alaska forum has been suggested several times, we're just lazy. Not like it took a whole 15 seconds for me to set it up.

The Privatization of America's Great Outdoors has become a top prioritywithin the Bush administration. And for this reason, the passage ofpermanent Fee-Demo authorization coupled with the authorization of a"Charter Forest Pilot Demonstration Program" were recently listed byUndersecretary Mark Rey as amongst the President's highest USFS legislativepriorities.www.fs.fed.us/congress/2002_Testimony/2_12_02_Rey_on_FY_2003_Budget.htm Unfortunately, the general public and even some within the activistcommunity have yet to aggressively oppose this monstrous threat.Unfortunately, when I speak of the USFS and National Park Service as usingfee-demo to "Sell the Sunset", there are still some who believe I'mexaggerating. Fortunately, no one need take my word for it. Fortunately President Bush'sown public lands policy advisor, Terry L. Anderson (www.perc.org), hasexplained the reality of the situation far more clearly than I could everdo. Pasted below is Mr. Anderson's vision for how America's Public Landswould/will be managed once they are privatized. But understand that Private/Charter Forests can only work when coupled withrecreation user fees. To see the result, please read on. To stop thismadness, please help us defeat fee-demo. Please reply to this message andlet us know how you intend to help. Thanks. Scott -------------- begin quoted ----------------- http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj1n2-6.html A private park owned in fee simple absolute could be managed in a variety of ways. For example, the corporation could hold title to the land and charge admission. Under traditional tort principles the firm would owe a duty of reasonable care to the ticket purchaser who would be an "invitee." The firm could monitor entry at the gate and ration access to a wide variety of activities and amenities. (45) Park visitors could be required to carry appropriate nontransferable permits, such as hiking or fishing stamps. The firm could issue stamps for such pursuits as spelunking, bird watching, fishing, hunting, or skiing. The stamps, in responding to the sensitivity of the price system would be as diverse as consumer preference could make them. The gate fee could cover such hard-to-charge-for amenities as the sky, broad vistas, and fragrant flowers. Specific fees might then be charged for particular amenities, such as caverns, geysers, and waterfalls. In this way, the cross-subsidization of consumers of particular amenities by nonusers could be reduced to a minimum. (45) The following owes much to conversations with Terry Anderson. For a general discussion of legal aspects of parks and recreation areas under private control, see 4 Am.Jur.2d, Amusements and Exhibitions (1962 & Cum. Supp. 1980). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Scott SilverWild Wilderness248 NW Wilmington Ave.Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.orgInternet: http://www.wildwilderness.org June 15, 2002 is National Day of Action to PROTEST FOREST FEES.For additional information or to share your plans, please contact us. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Below is from Scott-------------------------- Pasted below is a darned important fee-demo article from Sunday's Oregonianthat appeared under a darned misleading headline. The headline reads "Forest Managers Plan to Eliminate Fees".... but it's notuntil you read the article do you appreciate that forest managers onlyintend to temporarily eliminate a few fees at a few of the more unpopularfee locations. In fact, it's not until you read the article do you realizethat the agency is engaged in a last ditch effort to calm the growingopposition to a program that threatens to burst into flames. And it's notuntil you read the article do you appreciate how critical the next 6 monthswill be for the fee-demo issue or how hard the Bush Administration ispushing to make fee-demo the permanent law of this land. In a internal USFS memo dated 1/4/02 local forest managers were instructedby the Washington DC Office (and I quote) to "put out hotspots". The memoexplained to these managers that unless they quiet/silence the growingopposition to fee-demo, the future of this program is threatened. And thismemo specifically pointed to the Pacific Northwest as one of those criticalHOTSPOTS! You can read this internal USFS memo at:http://www.sespewild.org/usfsmemo.html . In fact, as informative as is thearticle below, if you truly want to experience the pressure being applied tolocal forest managers for them to, at least temporarily, create the illusionthat the public will tolerate fee-demo, you'll find no better document thanthe one linked to above. Scott PS.... Please join us on June 15th to protest fee-demo and to urge Congressto restore adequate funding to maintain appropriate levels of recreationalinfrastructure on, and provide adequate protection of, America's publiclands. PPS.... Speaking ONLY metaphorically --- June 15th is a day to cause thosefee-demo hot spots to burst into flame. We can't do it without your help.June 15th will be a National Day of Action. Contact us for details! ---------- begin quoted ----------- http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/10157649403153458.xml Forest managers plan to eliminate fees - 03/10/02MICHAEL MILSTEIN National forest managers expect to eliminate recreation fees at sometrailheads and other lesser-developed sites in the Northwest in a finalattempt to hone public support for the federal fee program that led to thedebated Northwest Forest Pass. The program now faces its toughest test because President Bush's 2003 budgetproposes making the federal recreation fees, which were imposed on anexperimental basis since 1996, a permanent fixture on public lands nextyear. Both moves suggest this will be a make or break year for the Recreation FeeDemonstration Program, created to underwrite repair of popular butdeteriorating trails, restrooms and other facilities in national forests andother public lands by charging people who use them. Supporters in Congress say permanent authorization of the fees is a toppriority in 2002, although some have set conditions for how the chargesshould be levied in the West. Fee opponents, who fear fees will lead to commercialization of public land,plan to step up their fight with nationwide demonstrations in June. This is the first time a president has pushed to permanently enactrecreation fees, now set to expire in 2004. The proposal has led to meetingsbetween land agencies and leading lawmakers in Washington, D.C., andfine-tuning of fees in the field to address nagging public criticisms. The Northwest has long been a center of opposition to public land recreationfees. Last year, the Oregon Legislature called for an end to the NorthwestForest Pass, required at many national forest trailheads and other sites.Pass sales generated about $6.5 million last year. The staff of the U.S. House Resources Committee, which would likely take alead role in authorizing fees, told the U.S. Forest Service late last yearit must "get the heat turned down" in Oregon, Washington, Idaho andCalifornia before Congress will impose fees permanently, according to aForest Service memo. The Forest Service's priority "should be to put out 'hotspots,' " the Housestaff members told forest officials. The National Park Service, U.S. Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Fish andWildlife Service also take part in the fee demonstration, but the ForestService has applied fees most prominently in the Northwest. Surveys of land users suggest that those who pay fees want the money to fundvisible repairs and other benefits at the sites where they pay, andlawmakers have stressed the same point. In the Northwest, the Forest Service is addressing that point by reviewingthe more than 1,100 sites where the Northwest Forest Pass is required tomake sure they feature enough improvements to justify a fee. The Northwest Forest Pass, which costs $5 a day or $30 a year, is usedmainly as a parking permit and must be displayed at marked trailheads,turnouts, picnic areas and similar sites in Oregon and Washington forestsand North Cascades National Park. But the sites can vary widely, officials said, because individual Northwestforests originally designated them without clear criteria. "Currently we've got sites that are nothing more than a wide spot in theroad, to sites with paved parking lots with stripes, toilets and bulletinboards," with fees charged at both, said Mark Christiansen, recreationprogram man- ager for Oregon's Deschutes National Forest. Forest officials are now evaluating each site to determine whether itsfacilities -- such as restrooms or picnic tables -- equal a minimuminvestment of $5,000. Those that meet the threshold will continue as feesites, while those that don't will be either removed from the program orimproved so they meet the standard. Typical trailhead restrooms cost more than $5,000. "What we're really trying to do is tighten up the program so there's a levelof consistency across the region, where the public can expect a certainlevel of service when they pay a fee," said Jocelyn Biro, the ForestService's regional fee demonstration coordinator. "They either come up tothe standard or they come out of the program." No changes are likely during the coming summer season, she said. But theForest Service will likely drop fees at some sites next year -- it's unclearhow many -- while beefing up facilities at others where fees continue. "I would say we'll lose some sites, but not the majority," Biro said. "Ithink more to the point, we need to meet the minimum services the public isexpecting. For instance, the Forest Service must provide restrooms at heavily usedlocations to meet environmental and sanitation rules and prevent damage tothe landscape, she said. Without fees to provide funding for suchimprovements, the agency cannot meet those obligations, she said. But Scott Silver of Bend-based Wild Wilderness, a longtime foe of recreationfees, said the new investment threshold for Northwest Forest Pass sites willlead forest managers to build up wildlands simply to justify charging fees.That will leave the Forest Service better known for its facilities than itsland-management role, he predicted. "The Forest Service is seeing to it that its main point of contact with thepublic is the toilet seat," he said. In meetings with Forest Service officials, congressional leaders have saidpermanent approval of fees would likely come with certain conditions. Manyvoiced concern about "nickel and diming" of the public by confusing layersof different fees at different sites and said any continuing fees must havetight controls. Although backing permanent status for recreation fees, Rep. Scott McInnis ofColorado outlined a series of mandates in a January letter to the ForestService. McInnis, a Republican, heads the House Subcommittee on Forests andForest Health and is likely to exert strong control over new feelegislation. Among his conditions: Fee revenue must stay at the site at which it is collected. Fee money must go toward projects that directly benefit the public, withlimits on personnel and administrative spending. Recreation fees should not be charged in undeveloped, backcountry settings. Sites should levy one fee only, not a series of fees for different uses. Fees should not be used as a tool to limit use of public lands. Congress should limit the number of fee sites. Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., has been a primary opponent of the FeeDemonstration Program and aims to defeat any bills that would enact feespermanently, a spokeswoman said. The issue is likely to get a more completehearing in Congress this year than it has in the past, when fees weretypically tacked on to appropriations bills, she said. DeFazio argues the fees turn public lands into a "king's domain,"discouraging lower-income families who cannot afford the charges. Forest Service officials counter that a mix of fee and free sites, plusspecific days each year when fees are waived, provide broad access. Theyexpect the public to support fees as long as the proceeds go toward publicfacilities. "I think it would be nice if federal lands were all paid for by thegovernment, but I see why the fees are necessary," said Tim Kutscha, a pastpresident of the Ptarmigans hiking club in Vancouver, Wash. "I think it'sprobably a fact of life." You can reach Michael Milstein at 503-294-7689 or by e-mail atmichaelmilstein@news.oregonian.com. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Scott SilverWild Wilderness248 NW Wilmington Ave.Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.orgInternet: http://www.wildwilderness.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material isdistributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest inreceiving this information for research and educational purposes.

It's gym rat slang for basically holding a contraction, like at the top of the pullup. To clarify it was a one arm lockoff, so basically doing a pullup and at the top letting go with one hand. I almost was able to hold. Not sure how being able to do a onearm lockoff will help me climb 5.9s cracks better but whatever.

Does anyone know what determines whether land is managed by the USFS (Dept. of Agriculture) versus NPS (Dept. of Interior). Obviously there is land that has to be logged, mined, drilled to support our way of life, I'm just wondering is the only way to completely protect land is to make it a wilderness. There are a number of wealthy people and groups that buy huge quantities of land in central and south america to protect it from being deforested, protecting byways for animal migration protecting genetic diversity. So we can protect lands in other countries but not our own? What can be done here besides writing letters to congressman that are probably left unread, at least not understood.

quote: Originally posted by trask: All I have to say is you biker dudes that go agro on strangers in cars and trucks are playin' with fire. Someday some dude will put a cap in your ass for scarin' the shit outta him. Be carefull you guys. There's a lot of seriously disturbed hombres out there these days. Trask you do have a good point. I rarely do what I mentioned above, there have only been like 50, 60, well maybe 70 instances . Just kidding. If it was some soccer mom yapping on her cell phone in her suburban I'm going to give her a piece of my mind, likelyhood of her putting a cap in my ass is pretty slim. Now it was some dude in a raised Bronco monster truck with Ranger stickers and a big banner about 9/11 saying "kill them all", wearing a cowboy hat and gargoyle sunglass there isn't a chance in hell I'd say anything. Yes I actually saw a dude like this. My point is.....hey what is this thread about anyways.

quote: Originally posted by slothrop: Oh man, this kind of shit happens to me all the time. I think about carring my ice axe with me and so I can sink it deep into the asshole's trunk as he blazes by me, thus inflicting righteous punishment and giving me a free joyride. Man I shouldn't be saying this but whateva. I've had several instances when i've gone completely ballistic on people. Normally I'm a very nice, patient person, I ride very safely and I thank people for waiting for me, but when I've been on the bike for 3 hours and am soaking wet and freezing cold some people shit just doesn't fly. I'm know to throw waterbottles, bang on peoples windows telling then to pull over so I can beat the shit out of them, chasing cars for 20 blocks following them home, and hitting peoples side mirrors. People in Bellevue are by far the worst, I think Seattlites are used to the bikes. I've had way too many close calls in Bellevue, one resulting in me laying out my bike at 25 mph instead of going over a hood, man that road rash sucked. I had one guy yelling at me telling me I "wasn't a car", duh no shit? I think he was a little surprised I was able to do 30 mph uphill to the next light so I could verbally abuse him. Besides that I'm a really nice person.

I looked on the Petzl website and they said the materials were good for 5 years, then should be replaced. I'd didn't say whether the material is polypropylene or polystyrene, which I think makes a difference. Usually when a company gives an "expiration date" figure like five years that is worst case. We use pretty powerful UV lights to sterilize our biological safety hoods at my work and it takes quite a long time for them to destroy any plastic products we may leave in them. Usually the plastic becomes very brittle and then fails. That said I think the other materials in a helmet would wear out before the plastic shell become to brittle to use. Might be worth asking Petzl about though I could very well be wrong. Good thinking Dave.

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Usually the big football player lookin dude struggles alot more than the cute girlfriend... HAH! Some gym rat saw me lifting weights and asked if I could do a lockoff. I tried but wasn't quite strong enough. He got on the bar and did a lock off no problem, very proud of himself. "So hey bro how much you weigh?" I ask. "Umm 150." I tell him to jump back on and hand him a 50 pound barbell. He grabs it and slams to the ground. "Now you have an idea what it is like for me to do it!"

I'm pretty freakin bummed I wasn't able to make it, glad you guys had fun though. My car was supposed to be out of the shop but didn't find out it wasn't finished until too late to get a ride, so I had to drink by myself. Maybe AlpineK should be honorary Pub Club chairperson?

quote: Originally posted by chucK: Dude! do you have wings? LOL! People can cry all they want about other drivers, but it's nothing compared to commuting on a bike, as I'm sure Beck and Dan Larson can attest. Not like I don't drive but there is a population that sits somewhere on left end of the bell curve who just shouldn't be driving. An asshole a while back decided to pass me, then cut right in front of me, then immediately stopped trying to park while talking on his cell phone. He put me in a pretty sticky situation lucky, so I decided to get him a new drivers side mirror.

quote: Originally posted by trask: Yea right...great idea. Anyone pulls the window confrontation on me and they'll be lookin' down the barrell of my .45 I shit you not And you'd be staring down the barrel of my baseball bat, and it don't run out of bullets!

I don't climb in my bike helmet, though I've seen people doing that and I don't think there is really a problem with it. I want a hardshell helmet, just one that fits as nicely as my bike helmet.

I don't remember ever seeing a post about this and I think it is a important topic. Recently looking at helmets there are a lot more offering than when I bought my helmet 7 years ago. Also being a cyclist, the helmets have made leaps and bound over the same time period, fitting better and having better breathability. I wouldn't ride a bike without a helmet, I have a helmet for skiing, and I'll never climb without my helmet again. So which of the new generation of helmets do people like and why? Which ones have the best adjustability? My bike helmet (a Giro) has a adjustable back that goes under the back of your head that really aids in keeping the helmet secure but not snug. If I could find a climbing helmet like that I would be very tempted to buy it.

OH THE DRAMA! Props and for AlpineK for suggesting it is the eastsides turn even though he could have vary well suggested the pub within crawling distance. Quah is cool with me, I'll drink stouts with bonbon. I think some of you (caugh caugh allison!) should just suck it the f&*k up. The two pub clubs I've been to I took the bus and walked, other rode my bike home in the dark for an hour and a half (in the snow uphill both ways I may add!)

There isn't much of a selection for cool bars on the eastside, I'd rather go somewhere in Seattle close to I-5. Problem with Issaquah is the traffic sucks bad.