Water

the CAMP Alpax were on sale for $89 at Next Adventure in PDX a month or so ago. My buddy picked one up. They may not be in the same category as some of the BD or petzl stuff but i am not at a level to know, but I personally like stuff from camp. http://www.camp-usa.com/products/ice-axes/alpax-special-hammer-100402.asp

brian at ULA is pretty solid dude. I love my catalyst pack, best pack I ever owned. Anyways I don't think he'd try to pull a fast one. Main thing is, this is made for long-distance hikers on the PCT mostly who have to go over the sierras and might want an ice ax for self arrest if they are going early in the morning over passes, but don't want to carry the weight of your average one. Being real carbon fiber at that price is probably possible because he has not done any of the required testing to call it an ice ax or sell it as such. no insurance/liability/certification/etc. = cheaper

i would guess you can find a time to stop by. I think they do stuff on Fridays if i recall the blog. I didn't end up going with one of his packs (settled for something generic for $25 on clearance somewhere) but they seemed really good and Graham spent a ton of time showing me materials, iterations, and going over their processes. No hard sell-job on his part and I still use one of the free strap-buckles he gave me for securing crampon bags and stuff. It was a real joy and for me and counts as a selling point as I can't spend a chill hour+ with the designers of almost any of the gear I use.

dick, as a michigander I can say that an ice axe probably won't be helping you there, but 'trekking poles' will give more stability (make sure you're using metal, and not rubber tips). I have microspikes and while they will improve your passage over ice dramatically, compared to nothing, it is possible that a full strap-on-crampon would really give you the best security. That said, have you looked into the types of spikes they sell for ice-fisherman? If I remember correctly they attach like microspikes but have actual spikes that are larger than most crampon spikes (unless my childhood ice fishing on lake erie memories are tricking me). Generally, I'd expect those to be cheaper than crampons -- though getting a used pair of crampons shouldn't be too expensive. also, pick yourself up a pack of those chemical 7hr hand-warmer things if you don't already have them. Could make a big difference in keeping your fingers nimble with the camera in cold weather. love the shots, cheers!

thanks for your feedback everyone--like I said in the first post, i have little doubt either would be great. Found the mammut laser in my size for $200 and just waiting for it show up in today's mail, hopefully. john h -- any feedback on your trip with the stoic gear? I like bc.com stuff for sure, but stoic hasn't sold me for any particular reason. Plus I have to say I have found the fit to be funny on a number of bc.com long-sleeve things -- I think they must model it for their workers who must be bean poles--i tried a few of their shirts on and the sleeves came down to my 2nd knuckles, tight in the armpits, and hung down to my crotch--i couldn't imagine who it would fit since i am of normal proportions (5'8" 150) so long as you're not paying MSRP on mammut or arcy gear, its about the same price as stoic. but I'd love ot hear more firsthand opinions of field use of the stoic gear that aren't all bc.com employee raves

let me call my parents back in the midwest. i think they have some..probably from 70's... they have two 0 degree down bags with snap in liners that i think are holubar

its possible he was marking down some waypoints while it was crystal clear out, for future reference in less than stellar weather?

for 250 i'll buy it prollers. does it come with manual, registration, and what is the battery expiration? thanks mattanuska AT gmail DOT com

what plb is it? mcmurdo fast find 210? where are you located?

any status update on this?

try the mazama lodge. i am pretty sure non-members can stay. if they have space, it will fit your budget. my apologies if I am incorrect about allowing access for non-members. However, I am absolutely sure that they do have partnerships with other climbing clubs that allow you to stay there (if the general public can not).

hear ya on the experience being unique to you. Yes, if we are forced to use them, by all means ORV, hunters, etc need to be mandated as well. you'd say GPS makes you more self-sufficient, batteries, satellites/signal and all? Than a map and compass? would a PLB (and not MLU which is a POS) make you less self-sufficient? From my view having a PLB is not going to influence what choices I make while climbing. However it would play a role if an accident happens--If my partner(s) or I end up staring death in the face with no other options, I'd take the PLB in hand over not having it. Would you not? Or do you think you would push the red button before you exhausted all your options, or would it influence you to make choices you wouldn't otherwise make? I guess I don't personally see how having a cell phone turned off and in my pack could trammels my experience in the wilderness (other than the weight?). Does it seem like you couldn't die as easily from a shattered tibia due to shock or exposure if you had a cell+service or a PLB? I'm curious how you personally decide which technology trammels your wilderness experience. I mean the metal stays in your pack, the GPS, the ice tools all have tons and tons and tons of technology, hell, thousands of years of meturlogy behind them but you don't go without them. They make you more self-sufficient in that you don't need someone to make a path, put up bolts, etc, but many of them are technologically advanced tools for sure. I don't care if you don't want these items, sure, and I don't think your attitude is bad--but I guess I don't logically or emotionally see how you decide which technology is too much and which isn't - or the why of it, rather, unless it negatively influences your decision making process, which would be an understandable reason to have a strong opinion about not taking it.

Not sure if that is directed at me. I didnt feel flamed so no worries. The McMurdo Fast Find 210 is a newer beacon that recently came out, it is very small http://www.fastfindplb.com/en/index.php its no panacea, it ain't gunna keep anyone warm, and its not going to stop rockfall or an avalanche, but to me it seems pretty damn small and light, reviews from numerous sources are very positive, and at $300 (or less if we get a group deal that someone on CC is trying to organize) it is competitive with many other pieces of gear I buy. Climbers don't need to mobilize to demand this tech--it is being created and there are many users that would benefit from smaller beacons that can be kept on the person (boaters, for instance). I am not upset by PMR but listen, the public heard "we don't agree with mandating these because people will be riskier" as they stand in front of a mountain with 3 dead kids, 2 they can't find on it. (RIP) Sorry, but the public is dumb and they don't believe that, they see 3 dead folks picture and say these PMR people are wrong/have an agenda/want climbers to do whatever they want. Legislation to make MLU mandatory won't come from climbers, but sure as heck the public idiots would support it and mobilize it. Thus I personally think PMR should be more proactive about emergency tech. use: "we strongly advocate voluntary use of safety technology, but emphatically disagree with the legislation of it because ".

the debate was that the editorial cartoon was not tasteful, that PMR says no about the legislation, which almost every last person here also agrees upon (its dumb technology, unenforceable mandate, and unlikely to lead to your rescue any more than a cell phone). However, PMR's byline that was in the news for the public was "We don't advocate mandating them - it would make people be riskier". Not "We strongly advocate that climbers/climber community voluntarily carry technology that could help their potential rescue/survival chances, but we absolutely can't support mandating MLUs for a variety of reasons, including it would increase risk and be unenforceable. let someone else clean the language up - but they need a better line than the one that the public got. Sure if you read their detailed statement it says they support leaving a detailed itinerary and a person to call if you dont check in, bring a PLB, MLU, phone, shovel, bivy, cord of wood" Then most of the response here, as Dane says, was "yeah, no way I'd carry a beacon, salem can't tell me what to do, it changes the game, I want to die if i get hurt but can't get out on my own, etc". Personally, being a new climber and having felt quite comfortable and that conditions were excellent along and above the reid just a week before this accident -- it has me squarely set on getting that McMurdo beacon. Not because it will influence my decisions one iota, but that if something does go wrong and I can't get myself out of there or someone will die if they don't get help fast enough, it is superior technology to a MLU or cell phone. And because I'd easily spend the same amount on boots, jackets, sleeping bags, tents, ice tools, etc, even if I try to shop for deals.

I said I agreed with everything cascadeclimber said except that those devices have already "taken so much away from the experience", and he was saying he does not advocate someone in salem telling climbers specifically what they must carry, especially due to the slippery slope it creates. I honestly prefer it to be about your own choice and self reliance as much as possible. If you are in such a bad place that you can't rescue yourself, and you have tools to call in help, I support having that help available when it can be. If you don't have a phone, PLB, someone to call in an attempted rescue when you're overdue, no route info left, no shovel, etc etc and you die of something like a broken ankle due to shock or exposure or something, that is terribly unfortunate but really comes on you, not anyone else. I agree many climbers are poor. Also, many are not. I somehow found a way to increase my gear even when I was unemployed, lord knows. I'd also if you're fullon mountaineering or whatever anyone wants to call it, chances are you've spent a lot between boots, tools, rope, clothing, pack, ..sleeping bag..bivy?..etc. I would contrast that to living out of your van and climbing in the desert or something, not necessarily as much is needed for that.

Yes I am serious. I'd love to hear how those things "take enough away from the experience"--as if any one of those items made your day any less awesome or kept you from your goals. Right. Sure people obsess over weight - but for many cascade volcano routes that isn't quite a make/break issue. Maybe for world class climbers doing routes light-and-fast in remote areas etc etc, but anyone capable of climbing any of the routes on hood, is not going to be held back by a 6oz beacon, for instance. I understand a 5lb sleeping bag or an ancient locator the size of a 2 liter bottle and weighing 5lbs, sure-but we're not talking about that. So at what point would a 1oz beacon 'weigh too much'. Speed CAN be safety, not IS. I understand the cost argument a lot more than weight--but even then in the scope of what I have spent on outdoors equipment, it is just another one of those purchases--and will probably last longer than many of the other things.

cascadeclimber, I agree with almost your entire post, except for this part. I take such things along with me and have noticed no detrimental experience on account of having them. What good parts of your experience are you giving away to the inanimate objects you carry in your pack or pocket? Those things take nothing, only what you give them. Does the high tech textile engineering of scholler detract from having just a wool jacket? What about the materials science and engineering going into ice tools or ski construction--surely those things don't detract from the experience of having all wood and steel equipment. In addition, the newest McMurdo PLB is 5 or 6oz. I realise weight can be an issue, but at 6oz I can swing it, personally. And there is no reason that the weight won't go lower over time. At what point would a 2oz PLB be too heavy? I suppose there will always be someone. btw thanks for your website--have enjoyed a lot

i was under the impression that you even only have 10 tests per year of the GPS aspect. What I thought the 210 version has is the 406mhz beacon that goes to satellites and in addition some sort of a local transmission of GPS coordinates which gets your specific location known immediately. i do not believe it functions in any way as a navigational device with providing gps coordinates to you. but i could be wrong, im no expert on it. keep us up to date on the deal if you can wrangle one.

so i posted the stats of the weather and said its serious. whats the big deal? was it wrong that i didn't put estimated conditions of the top of rainier or hood during a storm? didn't mean to ruffle you feathers with that

off_white: I'm practically as fresh as they come. I have enjoyed Don's contributions and recognize his emphasis that the rigors and consequences of this sport require intense self-examination and the ability to learn from others.

discussing the specifics of accidents seems extremely necessary, from my pov, to learn about mistakes and pure freak accidents and try to use that knowledge to anticipate potential situations when heading out. But thats not whats going on here at all. We're talking in generalities about what mountains have the most deaths (such as, the most deadly intersections in the world--does nothing to help driving or pedestrian technique--maybe just tells us where to avoid?). it is both useless (unless we are planning a trip to said mountains and aren't aware of the 'general risk' (i hope not)) - and its still morbid.

When? are you sure this is exactly what you saw on SAC? Wed Sep 03 00:49:40 MDT 2008: Steep and Cheap: Arc'teryx Alpha SV Bib - Women's - $165.85 - 61% off Sat Oct 31 21:39:44 MDT 2009: Tramdock.com: Arc'teryx Stinger Bib - Men's - $179.95 - 60% off Sun Nov 01 23:10:12 MST 2009: Tramdock.com: Arc'teryx Theta Ar Bib Pant - Men's - $159.95 - 60% off ???

incredible trip report! but calling it a TR is an understatement. Thank you so much for taking the time to make such a well written, photographed, and fun description of a major adventure!

i contributed to this thread earlier, but have to agree with porter, this is a morbid topic that doesn't yield much constructive to take away. we could discuss the most deadly intersection in america too.

same deal on the price, not about to cut a check to you but this idea is good, in my opinion.