el jefe

call the index general store and ask if the roads there are wet. if they are dry then some of the face routes might be dry, but if they are wet then everything is wet.

i think you've missed the point, dannible. the pickets and the dome/gunsight areas are hardly high use zones so not really at issue here. oldlarry's original post was regarding high use areas such as washington pass where the proximity of the highway to the peaks creates a quasi-euro situation where protecting the resource means either developing an infrastructure to manage the increased flow of visitors or come up with a plan for limiting the number of visitors.

interesting news to be sure. the website says the "oregon nordic club" has taken over managing the place, but doesn't say when this happened.

i drove out highway 30 as far as multnomah falls today. nothing was in yet. a few more days of freezing temps might do the trick but not sure this cold spell is going to last long enough.

nice photo, bill.

most excellent trip report!

I think the social responsibility is going out into the wilderness with the knowledge not to F it up more. Nobody needs to pay for that. Interesting how this discussion started with cairns near SEWS, and has turned into huts etc. I can't say I'm in favor of a hut anywhere in Washington. I don't see how it would really manage ecosystem destruction in most places. Unless of course say in Boston Basin you had a hut and it was required to stay in the hut. Otherwise you'll have people not wanting to stay there and setting up rock walls to surround their tents. Then you have both eyesores, a hut and rock walls. Multiple trails in that area are due to people seeking safer locations to cross the creek. Can't cut that down without a bridge of some sort I'd say... (Not advocating for a bridge, but if you want people to cross in only one location, I don't see another way.) I think some people had some great points on here about multiple trails getting worn into alpine meadows. Some times the trail on snow if different than the one on exposed meadow. People keep on the snow until there is a melted section and then they tramp over the meadow to the next patch of snow. The party following their footsteps in the snow does the same... This is one thing that RNP does attempt to fix with numerous bamboo wands and signs... Only this erosion happens in far more places than near Paradise. I think more or better toilets, and obvious or signed toilets would be helpful too. To use Dane's example of Vantage, a lot of that mess comes from people not prepared to deuce in the wild. Then they use an overloaded honey bucket and things go downhill from there. A situation like that would be helped with a permanent solution. As a steward of the land, I go to Vantage and expect to pack out my excrement. The signage at Vantage is pretty helpful and should keep down destruction, but I don't know why it doesn't? Education would go a long way in all of these scenarios. I mean who leaves a turd next to a tree at a belay on the Tooth? I am sure it was someone unprepared for that situation, both education, and equipment. Even with education you'll have some bad apples; those who don't care, or don't care to learn, or navigationally impaired. My two cents. this post actually demonstrates my point. "I think the social responsibility is going out into the wilderness with the knowledge not to F it up more. Nobody needs to pay for that." in other words, we can get this for free if everyone just behaved properly. there is no doubt that this is trus, but how do we get them to behave properly? "Education would go a long way in all of these scenarios." also true, but how do we get these yahoos educated? it happens magically? or do we, as a society or a user group -- collectively in some sense -- have to be willing to pony up a bit of money to make it happen? educating everyone is a great idea but it isn't going to just happen by itself.

dane, my point was that we are in a position to look at what others have done by way of solving this issue and see what has worked well and what has worked poorly, then choose accordingly. i certainly am not saying we should just do what the euros have done. chained rap lines off dragontail are hardly the equivalent of a chairlift up aaagard pass, as grinter has pointed out, but arguably better than tat around every horn of rock.

i think grinter nails it here. our presence changes things, and knowing that means we need to consider what changes we should make. more people are going into the mountains all the time and we need to figure out how to manage the traffic. the canadians, europeans, and kiwis have all come up with some plans and put them into effect, which means that we are in a position to look at what they've done and go from there in developing our own plan. the big hurdle for us is that those other cultures seem to have a sense of social responsibility and obligation that we don't have, hence the question of "who pays". kudos to oldlarry for introducing this topic.

i agree with you, danielpatricksmith, huts in some of the high use areas would be a really good idea. i understand dane's sentiment, but that is no longer the world in which we are living. i especially like the idea of a hut at colchuck!

if the temps drop just a smidgen lower...

i had a feeling this impulse sprang from the goodness of your heart!

but the really important question is why does dane want a drill? some sort of home improvement project? or something more sinister?

you forgot this one, rafe. dude's history speaks for itself: first ascent on mt si, first ascent of some hitherto unnoticed mossy blob of granite at index, ascents of notable cascades testpieces such as guye peak and snow creek wall. we should all be thanking our lucky stars that a badass like summitchaser condescends to share his wisdom and hard-won experience with the rest of us turkeys.

"psych graduate" -- now it all makes sense!

"offended"? no, i think "perplexed" would more accurately describe my reaction to this thread.

time for wallowing in the snow-covered shrubbery with ice tools and webcam?

this crazy, irrational fear of via ferratas sprouting up everywhere seems to be raindawg's peculiar form of seasonal affective disorder. every fall when the rains arrive, he posts this same picture on cc.com and starts the whole apocalyptic message thing. really, old man, try going on a climbing trip sometime. get outside and see what is really going on. reality isn't nearly as scary as you think it is. you spend too much time cooped up with your fears. open the curtains and let in a little full spectrum light. there are a lot of cool things going on in climbing right now and you are missing all of it hiding in your dark closet.

pm sent

the position of clean climbing is a stupid one. passive and active protection are products of an industrial society and as such don't fit the hippy-dippy definition of natural any more than bolts do. maybe it would if c4s were made from hemp, but they aren't. in all likelihood the environmental impact of all routes being bolted and permanently equipped with quickdraws would result in a much smaller carbon footprint overall for the sport than everyone owning a double set of cams and stoppers. if such were the case, then climbers would only need shoes, harness, rope and belay device to go climbing and the energy and raw materials used to manufacture all those widgets and gadgets could be saved for some other use or simply not used at all!

sounds like kimmo is applying for the position as raindawg's lieutenant that was left vacant when pope retired from cc.com...

i'm not interested in what you call a "discussion", raindawg, because it won't be a discussion in terms of a give-and-take of ideas but rather an opportunity for you to rant and for me to listen to you rant, and i certainly have better things to do. enjoy wandering around in the fog.

dude, of course he's wrong. most of what joseph posts here is "trash".

JosephH: blahblahblahblahsportclimbingruinedeverythingblahblahblahblah me: sounds like it must be raining

raindawg posting his usual drivel re: "clean" climbing and joseph his imaginary statistics -- a clear sign that the rainy season has arrived in the northwest.