Mr_Phil

And I am stunned how incredulous you are that anyone suggests not taking a beacon while climbing. You start off asking the question, but followup that anything less than doing as you do is stupid. Try rereading a little more carefully. My position is this. Beacons aren't always necessary for winter mountaineering. Climbers should make an informed choice before heading out.

I don't think the Mark VII is E911/diffGPS/PLAB enabled.

This, we knew.

Actually death is 100% fatal.

I'll assume that they're just going to modify the 'L' that's already there.

See?!? See what happens when you don't mitigate lunch?!? Luckily GIBob was there to save the day.

I know nothing about climbing, but it seems to me that you are suicidal and endangering the populace of Dafur with your negligence.

Do what I do. Get drunk and chat on the phone while commuting.

It's still Fall, folks.

Oops, small typo there. I meant 'asscertion', which short for 'Shoved up your ass.'

I knew something smelled fishy.

Proof by assertion doesn't work. All of the folks I climb with do things to mitigate the danger. But it cannot be eliminated. Are you saying that live should be lead only without risk?

Maintain? How hard is it to replace the batteries now and then? Maintain is short hand for practice as well.

Oh come on people... you all know as well as I do that every year a number of climbers get killed by avalanches. The table in the back of Accidents in NA Mountaineering shows 278 ave deaths in the US from 1951-04 and another 125 in Canada in that same time. In 2005 there were 8 avalanche deaths. Granted the table does not differentiate between ski mountaineering and say, an ice route - but plenty of climbers out for a day of "real climbing" have been killed by avalanches. You bet. Climbers can make the same mistakes as skiers. There has already been one avy death this ice season near Canmore, as the bowl above released, swept over the upper climber, and buried the lower climber. A beacon was unnecessary, as the rope trailed to the victim. Again, two years ago three Seattle area climbers were killed on Mt Wilson as bowls above released. Again, beacons would not have helped as all three climbers were buried and there was no one else around. Of course, if you're going to carry a beacon, then each party member should be carrying a probe and shovel as well.

This makes no sense. What does this have to do with suicide? This is true of climbing. This is true of just about every other accident situation, from driving to using small appliances. Are you saying that all drivers and their passengers are in suicide pacts?

Unless the beacons are giving you a false sense of security (possible, but totally mental, and something that needs to be avoided), I can't imagine that you'd have been "better off" without them. They're small and unobtrusive, so I don't really understand what negitive effect they could have beyond the mental aspect. Would you care to elaborate? After I got buried last year (not in the PNW) I began skiing with mine nearly every day, in bounds and out. Beacons are another piece of gear that one has to buy, maintain, and carry. And is only useful after you screw up. Not every day of climbing is in avy conditions or avy terrain. Skiers head directly for snow loaded bowls. Climbers can choose to avoid them in many instances. Sounds like you could use an avy class which focuses on risk assessment instead of reliance on gear.

No, your wrong. Prove your assertion.

It's sport climbing, numbnutz.

It's only a small thing, though.

Here's one option: http://www.spokanemountaineers.org/

Climbing isn't as dangerous as you imply. Qualified folks go climbing all the time (winter and summer) and come home without incident. You (as a non-climber) only hear about the times such as this when there is a problem. To evaluate the true risks, one must look at all instances of climbing. Imagine that you knew nothing about commercial aviation. And your first introduction was 9/11. It would be easy to conclude that flying was incredibly dangerous. But on more indepth consideration, commercial aviation is one of the safest activities. You are safer in a commercial airplane than driving down the highway. Climbing ice cliffs is fun and not incredibly dangerous. I'll probably be heading out this weekend to do it myself.

Actually, throwing in a little passion does swing these types of battles.

If one is planning to get buried in a snowcave and have to be rescued, then they might be useful. Avy beacons are short range devices (detection range ~50m), so searchers still have to have a pretty good idea where the victim is located. Packing for a climbing trip is a problem of optimization. There are a large number of things one might bring, so it's a matter of estimating risk and the usefulness of the tool, and balance that with weight and the ability to improvise. For example, the chance of encountering falling rock or ice is not neglegible, so most climbers would carry and wear a sturdy 1 lb. helmet on that route. The chance of getting buried in an avalanche at the time they headed up the route was pretty low, so a beacon would have little utility. One can't simply carry every piece of equipment that might prove useful in every imaginable accident. That's an infinite amount of gear. Weight is the enemy of climbing, as it makes it slower, more fatiguing, and requires one to carry even more food and water. So it's a balance, to carry enough but not too much.

Hey. I know. Let's start a discussion about bolting.